My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I • Hacker News Board

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#351

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:16 AM UTC

dpcan wrote: post #240

danShumway wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Effectively, what you're advocating for is that parents should all homeschool their children. Which... I mean, that's a position some people advocate for. But if every parent was equipped to do that, then their kids wouldn't have been in public school in the first place.

I'm saying that I'm tired of parents saying they "can't" do this distance learning things, or their kids "can't" do it, because they can, and if everyone put in some positive energy and effort, we can make it a success.

[deleted]

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#352

Post by donw » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:23 AM UTC

an_opabinia wrote: post #346

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #40

All of these comments make me think HN has never interacted with a 5 year old. Adults are barely able to make it through a day of Zoom meetings without feeling drained, how do you expect an almost toddler to react when forced to sit in front of a screen? The only reasons adults can do it is years and years of learning impulse controls and suppression of bad emotions for everyone's good. A 5 year old does not have the…

> All of these comments make me think HN has never interacted with a 5 year old. Everyone knows how fussy 5 year olds are, these readers aren't that stupid. The thing people usually get wrong is how fussy 6-16 year olds are. That 16 year olds actually don't have that much emotional maturity or know that much practical stuff either, even with 10 more years of life and school. The biggest crisis isn't parents with youn…

I'd say that problem comes in two parts.

One is... maybe the right way to describe it is hormones and experience?

Like, the first time you fall in love as a teenager, it's intense.

You literally have never felt that way about another person, ever. And, sure, from a cognitive development perspective, you're an adult, you just don't yet have the experience to deal with it.

That's true for a lot of life, and well beyond being a teenager.

As a teenager, you are, cognitively, a newly-minted adult. You don't know where you fit in the world, much less where you are going, and you're at the beginning stages of sorting out who you want to be. And sure, adults can give you advice, but only you can go through the process of figuring out who you are.

You are also, at the same time, both absolutely confident and totally insecure.

It's rough, full stop. My teenage years were hell on my parents.

This is compounded by American culture and education thoroughly insulating kids -- well into young adulthood! -- from developing emotional maturity or learning to accept responsibility.

That's all about upbringing, by the way. I have met teenagers that I would rank as more mature than a large number of people in their early thirties.

It's totally possible, and from what I have seen, easier -- we just don't do it.

Americans also do nothing, or at least nothing effective, to equip kids with critical life-skills: financial management, personal fitness, nutrition, martial arts, negotiation, the list goes on. The only thing we prepare them for is to "go to college".

That has to change.

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#353

Post by anonytrary » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:31 AM UTC

We don't understand education at all. I'm seriously worried for the current cohort. Young children are missing the necessary face-to-face learning and social relationship-building that being in class provides, but it doesn't stop there. Some fresh college students are now paying full-price for 100% online classes, completely missing the college experience in the process, probably getting a subpar education -- if you're gonna play the "college is a normalized scam" card, then now is the time.

It's a shame what is happening, and it's not really clear how to fix the problem. How to safely maintain the social needs of humans during a pandemic is currently an unsolved problem, and no, Zoom isn't the answer. We'll probably see heightened suicide and crime rates for the duration of the lockdowns.

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#354

Post by dang » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:32 AM UTC

monkeywork wrote: post #325

dang wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I honestly couldn't get past the" is an internet trope. "The author has issues" is true of everybody. "Neurotic" is calling names in this context [1]. It seems like a shallow dismissal to me. There's another guideline which applies here too: " Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. " Posts about parenting may be t…

Are you a moderator here Dang? If not how about you simply report and move on ... looking at your posting history a very large percentage of it is you trying to tell others how to use the site. The rules are fine however let those who are charged with enforcing them do so rather than trying to control others.

Yes, and lord I can't imagine what a dreadful scold those comments would make me if it weren't my job to post them.

Sorry for the confusion. We considered putting 'mod' tags beside our usernames but it just felt wrong, so as with most things about HN, people have to figure it out as they go, and it's always ok to ask questions.

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#355

Post by danans » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:35 AM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #313

danans wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I meant the phony ones who think this is a reasonable plan. I'm not sure what you mean by "reasonable", but I've yet to come across a single educator or administrator who thinks remote school is a good thing. They all think it's just the least bad among a set of bad options. Where are you finding educators who think it's actually net-positive and not just an unfortunate reality?

I dunno. Somebody had to come up with it. I have no clue who that is.

Maybe reasonable just means "least bad" in the current context.

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#356

Post by slowmovintarget » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:38 AM UTC

mumblemumble wrote: post #288

slowmovintarget wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a bit different. This forcing of academics into Kindergarten is more of a panic reaction to the overall low quality of the American education system. Unfortunately, this reaction ignores cognitive science for a try-harder approach. It isn't about materialism or care. It's about having education driven by supposition instead of evidence and what we know works. Phonics would still be core to early curricul…

I agree that there needs to be a more evidence-based approach. Though, I don't quite follow you on the specific example. The scientific consensus that I'm familiar with (based on trying to figure out, a couple years ago, how best to support a young child who was very eager to learn to read) is that you get the best outcomes when you use both approaches, and the current thinking is that no reading instruction program…

From what we now know, the "whole word" or "whole language" approach seems to be actively harmful. It is linked to the dramatic increase in dyslexia in the regions where it is used to teach English reading.

https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2019/08/22/whats-wrong-ho...

> ...it turns out cueing may actually prevent kids from focusing on words in the way they need to become skilled readers.

Turns out this was previously discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23981447

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#357

Post by prawn » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:49 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #305

war1025 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> putting your kids in school as early as 4 can result in life-long benefits. Giving a shit about your kids is mainly what results in life-long benefits. The sad truth is a lot of parents either don't care about their kids or care about them only as a proxy of how it reflects back on them.

I find that hard to understand. Isn’t having a kid something you do exactly so you have someone to care for and nurture?

Yes, and for 51% of the time it's all a priceless, privileged joy. And the other 49% is you feeling guilty because you are short of time trying to parent, work, keep and maintain a house; you want to encourage a broader palate or cook once for everyone but they gripe about what you've cooked, antagonise each other, mess up the house in creative new ways, etc.

That's assuming you are an engaged parent and intended to have them.

I imagine school is an effective piece of the puzzle because it offers peers plus dedicated, trained professionals keeping everyone on track without having to also clean the house, take client calls, cook, etc.

Back up the comment chain though, I think in a year like this and at younger ages, you can relax any homeschool attempts. Months ago when quarantine peaked in South Australia, we took our kids out of school and had a very free-form program. Get up late, make bread together, do a bit of gardening, play Lego, building challenges, drawing, screen time, etc. Combo of bumming around at home with practical, learning activities. Fine by the kids and less stress for parents.

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#358

Post by djsumdog » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:50 AM UTC

The schools need to be open. Child abuse ER visits are up 35%[0]. Let that sink in. If a child goes to the ER for abuse, it's not because they have a black eye. They likely have broken bones, or are unresponsive. Thirty-five percent!

Schools provide surveillance into things like child abuse, the need for hearing aids, the need for speech therapy classes .. and school lunches provide nutrition standards for many underprivileged children. All of that in gone.

I know plenty of friends who taught on-line University classes prior to 2020 who told me the students cheat and the courts are pretty much bullshit. You get out of any program what you put into it, and college students have the ability to put things into their programs. Children needs socialization with other human beings.

The threat to children is minuscule. The threat to teachers under 40 years of age is also not great. We can pay the wages of older teachers and help them find new roles, quickly remove teachers who become CoV2 positive and find means to keep the schools open. Closing down schools is the worst idea possible.

[0]: http://adam.curry.com/enc/1593719588.319_scottatlasonschools...

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#359

Post by djsumdog » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:52 AM UTC

floren wrote: post #123

learc83 wrote: post #97

Kids can't learn all day long in a classroom. I don't know why we expect them to be able to do it remotely. School has always been 1/3 learning 2/3 baby sitting. When my parents were kids, they only went to kindergarten for half a day.

> When my parents were kids, they only went to kindergarten for half a day. Wait, hang on, is kindergarten all-day now? I was in kindergarten in... 1992, and it was half a day.

I was in primary school in the 80s and it was like .. 8am to 2:30 I think? ... pretty much stayed that way until high school, which I think let out at 3:30 or 4 ... mostly because we all rode the same buses and they had to go to each school to load up.

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#360

Post by shakna » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:55 AM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #358

The schools need to be open. Child abuse ER visits are up 35%[0]. Let that sink in. If a child goes to the ER for abuse, it's not because they have a black eye. They likely have broken bones, or are unresponsive. Thirty-five percent! Schools provide surveillance into things like child abuse, the need for hearing aids, the need for speech therapy classes .. and school lunches provide nutrition standards for many under…

Israel saw a clear correlation between schools opening, and the spread ofthe virus, in a way that affected the entire country. [0]

The threat is not negligible. Students act as carriers, like they always have, and then the super-spreader event occurs through teacher and staff contacts, who take it with them and continue the spread. That's without speaking about transport.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavi...