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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#351

Post by rabidrat »

jonstaab wrote: post #313
treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

The problem I see with that is that if a huge number of people take that route and happily (let's assume) live their lives without working, they lose access to the ability to participate in a meaningful way in the economy by producing something of value; if they're not producing value, no one is going to value them, and they'll eventually be locked out of the new, smaller elite group that controls the means of produc…

I don't see how this is any different from the current group of "unskilled" workers who aren't valued (even if they are "essential"). At least with UBI they can live reasonable lives and create their own meaning, through community or art or activism or religion. Any of which are better outcomes than sacrificing most of their time on bullshit jobs which break their backs and/or their spirits.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#352

Post by Shared404 »

taneq wrote: post #300
christiansakai wrote: post #207

I know these are anecdotes but I already heard several cases from my circle of friends and families where they just chose not to work because of unemployment checks. Instead of practicing music or learning programming or doing something productive during their period of unemployment, they decided to watch Netflix and play games all day. Creating is hard work, studying is hard work. Just like having information and on…

Were these cases people who would otherwise have engaged in some creative endeavour (music, programming, art, tinkering, whatever)? Or were they otherwise engaged in menial repetitive jobs that should probably be automated anyway? If the latter, what's wrong with them watching Netflix? We don't need every human to work. Also if I gained a perpetual stipend that covered my basic needs, you bet I'd take a couple of mon…

> Were these cases people who would otherwise have engaged in some creative endeavour (music, programming, art, tinkering, whatever)?

Exactly. Those who will be driven to work anyways will still work. Jobs that need staff, restaurants, manual labor, etc. will pay more, or figure out how to operate with less staff.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#353

Post by modzu »

"Even the most hardcore anti-capitalists have to give respect to how the combination of capitalism and technology has worked to lift most of the world out poverty and provided us with the security and comfort only kings enjoyed just a few century’s ago."

wut? "most" of the world? does he mean most of the usa? statistically, most of the world lives in poverty.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#354

Post by 3131s »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #322
christiansakai wrote: post #207

I know these are anecdotes but I already heard several cases from my circle of friends and families where they just chose not to work because of unemployment checks. Instead of practicing music or learning programming or doing something productive during their period of unemployment, they decided to watch Netflix and play games all day. Creating is hard work, studying is hard work. Just like having information and on…

I can confirm, I have a few friends who are on unemployment for the first time in their lives and find it eminently livable and enjoyable (mostly just watching Netflix and such though). Some have openly declared their intent to ride it as long as they are allowed too. However, unemployment right now is paying much more than UBI proposals. I know people who are paid more on unemployment currently than the median house…

The more significant difference is that you lose unemployment benefits when you start working again, whereas with UBI there's no disincentive to work.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#357

Post by qudat »

> I’m a huge fan of capitalism and free trade, as laid out in Adam Smith’s genre defining book The Wealth of Nations.

> Strangely, even though we’re in a golden age of hyper-efficient production and trade, the overall GDP growth of the USA is slowing.

We don't have pure capitalism and we certainly don't have free trade, couldn't those be valid reasons why GDP growth has been slowing? Rules, regulations, and laws have only been increasing and corporatism is winning. It's a memory leak. This isn't the result of capitalism, this is the result of businesses colluding with government to create coercive monopolies. Natural monopolies don't exist in this country, they are all spawned out of the nation states' monopoly on force.

I also disagree with the premise that wealth inequality is necessarily bad. If everyone's quality of life is increasing over time, that seems good for everyone, right? It's a terrible metric to base economic policies on.

Having said all that, I'm a reasonable person. If we replaced the current welfare programs with UBI, I'd be excited to see that experiment play out. I think eventually the cost of basics (in particular rentals) will increase to meet the new income floor, and people will inevitably say "UBI doesn't meet basic needs anymore, we must increase it." Haven't we heard this before? We read about it all the time with minimum wages. After reading the arguments for it (which seem bountiful and raises red flags for me), I'm ultimately skeptical, but I'd be willing to give it a shot and I think it is better than the systems we have in place today.

Things that are too good to be true usually are.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#358

Post by ramshorns »

thoughtstheseus wrote: post #33
phillpot wrote: post #20

GDP is a bad metric. The planet does not have unlimited resources to fuel unlimited growth.

Similar arguments were made during our agrarian period, there's only so much farmable land so there is a limit on population and growth. Productivity gains and innovation remove that issue.

Forever?

Surely sooner or later as we run out of resources (and destroy the planet enough) we have to move away from the idea of growth and toward sustainability. These are mutually exclusive goals.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#359

Post by nhumrich »

marcrosoft wrote: post #332

I’m for UBI as long as it is actually universal and EVERYONE receives it and we remove all other government sponsored financial aid and remove all the other supporting institutions. It would mean we no longer need to pay people to decide who receives money and who doesn’t. I support this because it’s fair for all and much harder to game. I also support this because it would be a net neutral outcome . Basically people…

You have a good point. If existing aid programs ceased to exist, then the tax rate probably wouldn't need to change at all.
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