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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#351

Post by asabjorn »

rayiner wrote: post #163
asabjorn wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3,3k has so far died in Sweden and the population is 10 million. I believe 22k has died out of 8.3m in NYC, so NYC seems clearly worse. The strategy was to face more infections short term in favor of quick herd immunity so it’s actually a very positive sign for the strategy that the death rate is not higher than NYC. Considering that the curve has flattened and herd immunity is projected in a couple of weeks, it is n…

NYC is clearly worse, but NYC is also vastly worse than any other place in the US. In terms of density and scale of international travel (or the lack of both), Sweden is more comparable to Maryland or Virginia. Virginia, with 8.5 million people, has had less than 900 deaths. DC, which is only a bit smaller than Stockholm and similar in density, has had just 328 deaths, compared to over 1,200 in Stockholm

Density in Sweden is 64 per square mile while in NY state its 421 per square mile. However, much of the population live in cities such as Stockholm that has population density 12,800 per square mile compared to 66,940 for NYC.

If the dire high hospitalization and high death rate theory underlying lockdown was true, you would without lockdown expect worse than NYC death rates in Stockholm because it is very dense and we don't see that.

Moreover, wouldn't number of social contacts rather than population density be a better metric here? Population density is normally a proxy for number of social contacts, but NYC is in lockdown while Sweden is not.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#352

Post by ric2b »

xienze wrote: post #316
CathedralBorrow wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. Do you mind showing your work? What do the statistics say about Europe vs. US? I see you mentioned Sweden and Germany but Europe has many more countries than those two.

> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ Sort by deaths/1M. You’ll see the US doing better than UK, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc. And in absolute terms, there’s still more cases and deaths in Europe as a whole (I find it funny that when it comes to GDP, we like to think of Europe as “United States of Europe”, but when talking about corona deaths, not so much).

Sure, if you cherry-pick a few countries (your list is basically the most impacted countries in Europe).

If you include all European countries you get a different story.

And Europe has roughly double the population of the US, it's not surprising that it has more cases in absolute numbers.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#353

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

ericmay wrote: post #340
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People's basic survival needs have been threatened before this when they would get laid off. The entire rust belt became a cesspool of opiate and heroin addicts and no one cared when companies moved manufacturing offshore. No one cared that healthcare is tied to jobs. I've talked to a lot of people who said yea I need to work, but I don't WANT to work, I have to. And that is not a failure of the lockdown. it is a fai…

> The entire rust belt became a cesspool of opiate and heroin addicts Is this really necessary? It's a very inaccurate, and hurtful thing to say.

Perhaps the wording is a bit harsh - not everywhere is a cesspool, a lot of places have bounced back, but the rust belt is particularly bad in area of opioid abuse - that is fact and very accurate.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/opioids/opioid-summari...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#354

Post by bitcurious »

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> But what about the US? If all government is corrupt, if all taxes are sin, if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause, the people will never respect those in charge. The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice.

This is a rather extremist take on the issue. You can be against unlawful orders while still obeying the scientific advisories. Take MA for example, where we have a stay-at-home advisory, not order. This advisory has reduced the average number of close contacts of diagnosed COVID-19 people from 10 to 2, while still respecting civil liberties.

The model you preach, one of trust, starts with the government trusting its citizens. Otherwise you end up with tyranny.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#355

Post by HideousKojima »

nelaboras wrote: post #185
cryptonector wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legislatures have not been wiped out by covid-19. Elections are still being held too. If the legislatures wish to pass laws requiring various establishments to close down, they can pass them, and if Governors wish to have such laws on the books, they can request them of their respective legislatures. Similarly for the Federal government: Congress is still sitting, and they call their own sessions -- it can pass w…

But is it really democracy in action if a small-r Republicans holds the governor hostage?

Yes, obstructionism is just as much a part of democracy as passing legislation, there's no part of democracy that says legislatures have to pass anything presented to them

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#356

Post by JKCalhoun »

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause

Excellent comment, just one thing bothered me: even more insipid then the above is the "all politicians are crooks" cynicism.

"Anyway you look at it you lose..." Yes, even Mssr. Simon....

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#357

Post by wonderwonder »

The way the United States has handled this has been awe inspiring in its incompetence. We had our first identified case on the same day as S. Korea. Our death rate is currently 254 / million vs S. Korea's rate of 5.

Our federal leadership is saying that we should both open up and not open up at the same time. Its encouraging protesters that are protesting for the disobedience of the guidelines that it released. We refused functioning tests from other nations that worked in order to produce our own. This cost valuable time and resulted in a first round of testing that did not work, costing more time.

Businesses are shuttered by government edict forcing them to furlough or lay people off. Those people are now forced to sit at home without income or any job prospects while the government that required it continues to get paid and states that no further stimulus or funds to individuals is really needed while stating that the $1,200 some limited subset of people got should last 10 weeks. At the same time this government is actively working to reduce food subsidies and health care options not tied to employment.

We have state governments using their national guard to protect their ppe from seizure by the federal government. The federal governments response has been rife with cronyism and self enrichment. State level unemployment has been a massive failure.

We now have the federal government stating that citizens are warriors and encouraging us to willingly fight and die with a virus? Scientists whose job it is to provide public information and policy are actively derided. Talking heads are actively calling the number of deaths a hoax and panning a reasonable response.

We could have just shut down in the beginning, the government could have use the DPA to mass produce PPE and the existing tests while providing people with at least a minimum UBI. They could have quickly reached a point where we are able to test people each day as they walk into the office if in person work is required. If the test is failed the individual must self isolate for x days and can return to work once they test negative. Federal government guarantees the persons job while they are sick and pays the salary so the employer does not suffer. We could have had this thing fully contained and been back up and running in a couple of months.

Instead we appear to have seen the stock market fall, thrown our hands up in the air and cried that it is too hard.

Rant over. I am just very frustrated that it appears we may have endured all of this for nothing due to terrible management.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#358

Post by vorpalhex »

nelaboras wrote: post #185
cryptonector wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legislatures have not been wiped out by covid-19. Elections are still being held too. If the legislatures wish to pass laws requiring various establishments to close down, they can pass them, and if Governors wish to have such laws on the books, they can request them of their respective legislatures. Similarly for the Federal government: Congress is still sitting, and they call their own sessions -- it can pass w…

But is it really democracy in action if a small-r Republicans holds the governor hostage?

Are they really holding him hostage by taking him to task for an illegal order?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#359

Post by matthewheath »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #293
r_c_a_d wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the daily briefings are good. It's not just a politician talking; it's a politician flanked by two scientists or public health experts. The politician explains what is going on and the experts explain why, with data. This is the first time in my life I can remember politicians so publicly deferring to experts with evidence.

I didn't mention the scientists because I'm not criticising them. The only reason politicians are deferring to experts is they've realised experts are actually useful whereas before they didn't like them (something about the time for experts is over, something like that, can anyone recall?) Conversely you haven't touched on the fact that the buggers are constantly spinning, deferring blame for not getting enough PPE,…

> something about the time for experts is over, something like that, can anyone recall?

Michael Gove said, during the Brexit referendum, that "people in this country have had enough of experts".[1]

-- [1] https://www.ft.com/content/3be49734-29cb-11e6-83e4-abc22d5d1...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#360

Post by SeanDav »

ericmay wrote: post #340
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People's basic survival needs have been threatened before this when they would get laid off. The entire rust belt became a cesspool of opiate and heroin addicts and no one cared when companies moved manufacturing offshore. No one cared that healthcare is tied to jobs. I've talked to a lot of people who said yea I need to work, but I don't WANT to work, I have to. And that is not a failure of the lockdown. it is a fai…

> The entire rust belt became a cesspool of opiate and heroin addicts Is this really necessary? It's a very inaccurate, and hurtful thing to say.

https://psmag.com/magazine/a-year-in-the-heart-of-the-addict...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/1...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt

This is not a comment about the quality of the people in the region, but of the challenging circumstances caused by factors largely outside their control.

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