Bye, Amazon • Hacker News Board

Re: Bye, Amazon

#351

Post by btown » Mon, May 04, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

jeffrallen wrote: post #338

Come on, Tim. You lost me at, "cost me a million dollars". Congrats that you did the right thing, but no one should care how much it cost you to be ethical.

> no one should care how much it cost you to be ethical

Well, sure, no one should care, but from a purely pragmatic perspective, privileged people tend to hold in higher regard the actions of other privileged people. Sad, but it's how systematized injustice self-sustains. And if Tim including that detail makes even one other highly compensated executive, somewhere in the world, treat with just a tiny bit more respect the concept of walking away from golden handcuffs to push for ethical change... it's worth Tim treating that detail with gravitas.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#352

Post by generalpass » Mon, May 04, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

supergeek133 wrote: post #324

stupidcar wrote: post #20

> At the end of the day, it’s all about power balances. The warehouse workers are weak and getting weaker... Whenever I speak to someone working in a "low-skilled" job, I'm always astonished and embarrassed by how different their work environment sounds to the kind of offices I work in. There seems to be a consistent theme of employees being treated with suspicion, condescension and outright hostility. This gets to t…

I think this is a two way street. If you've never been involved at a management or ownership level of a business that has "low pay" labor (e.g., food service, warehouse, retail sales). For every 2-3 decent workers there is one that just takes pure advantage of the environment (e.g., stealing product, stealing time, etc). Sometimes this occurs at great cost for a period of time before it is discovered. EDIT: This was…

Even worse is when you evaluate hiring. It isn't unusual for a high-turnover entry-level type employer to have 15% or less of candidates who agree to fill a position still employed with the company 6 months later.

The pure drag of having to deal with this, especially when it comes to all of the paperwork required, by law, to be completed with every single new hire makes this alone a huge expense.

The vast majority of those employees left of their own will, not because they were fired. Usually when the leave, there is no notice. They just don't show up leaving management short handed and wondering whether the employee will show up the next day. Consequently, the policy can be to over-staff so that whenever some percentage isn't showing up the employer can still meet production needs.

The employer cannot simply increase prices and pay people better. For the most part, employers already have prices at the highest their customers are willing to pay. Setting prices higher will result in loss of customers, less profit, then layoffs or business closure.

Employees at this level are astoundingly uninterested in performing well, or, in other words, there is a reason they are working entry-level positions. This makes management yet more difficult because managers may have to become near micro-managers of cat herds trying to get the company to produce whatever it is supposed to produce.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#353

Post by lawnchair_larry » Mon, May 04, 2020, 2:53 PM UTC

Miner49er wrote: post #286

sanity31415 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what "sexist" and "racist" means unless you have evidence that sex and race are the cause of their overrepresentation. If not, this is just race/gender baiting and it detracts from the broader issue of worker treatment.

No, that's not really the case. It doesn't matter if something is done on the basis of race or sex. If the end result hurts those groups disproportionately it's racist/sexist. I guess this just may be a difference in definitions, but I think when most people are talking about racism/sexism on a macro level, they are using this definition. You're right, the broader issue is worker's rights, but it's definitely worth p…

No, that is absurd. That is not what sexism and racism means.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#354

Post by mtrower » Mon, May 04, 2020, 2:54 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #155

Havoc wrote: post #71

>humans in the warehouses as fungible units of pick-and-pack potential. Only that’s not just Amazon, it’s how 21st-century capitalism is done. That's the part that scares me - it's not just Amazon. Automation hasn't even kicked off properly and we've already got humans being replaceable at best

I'm not sure what else you can expect in a world where jobs that require effectively 0 skill exist. I'd prefer the "full automation" route, as I think it would be better for humans to not need to perform these jobs. But until then, isn't it a good thing that jobs which require no skills exist? Since there seem to be many people with little-to-no skills?

This is the fear. Increased automation will come whether we resist it or not; what hardships will the breaking point bring?

Re: Bye, Amazon

#355

Post by Symbiote » Mon, May 04, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #281

take_a_breath wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People work in less profitable industries and choose less-profitable majors all-the-time. Teaching, non-profit, nursing and research are fields where the pay doesn’t always match the schooling or knowledge required.

Sure, I'll grant you that, but it's much harder to give up something you already have than to abstain from something you don't have.

I'm surely not the only one here who declines or ignores messages from headhunters for companies with politics or technology I fundamentally disagree with.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#356

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 04, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

globular-toast wrote: post #123

ianleeclark wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd suggest working with or managing a place with low-skilled people. They of course aren't all like that but it seems it attracts low-motivation, low-effort, or low-caring Pay low wage, get low motivation. No one's going to bust their ass over a mcgriddle for minimum wage.

Give an inch and they take a mile. You could pay a McDonalds worker all you like and he'll still just try to get away with doing less work.

[deleted]

Re: Bye, Amazon

#357

Post by james-mcelwain » Mon, May 04, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

unreal37 wrote: post #341

dandare wrote: post #242

> Only that’s not just Amazon, it’s how 21st-century capitalism is done. I am really tired of all these off-hand attacks on capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system. It is characterized by private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. If you prefer a centralized or shared economy, that is fine, although I was born in a communist country and I bet you have no idea what you wish for.…

Also, there's an argument to be made that America is not actually truly capitalist. The government intervenes in the market all the time, especially now. Nothing big is allowed to fail. $Trillions to keep the party going. That's not capitalism. Even Buffett is sitting this "recovery" out because he can see the lack of a free market.

Isn't this the same rhetorical move that communists/socialists get accused of all the time? How can you claim that the most ideologically capitalist country on the planet isn't actually capitalist?

Re: Bye, Amazon

#358

Post by lawnchair_larry » Mon, May 04, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

noelsusman wrote: post #284

dennis_jeeves wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: Since many companies are under (public?) pressure to fill in some minority quota, they with end with relatively incompetent people from the minority group. Also my personal observation: an incompetent person from a minority group is likely to see a failed transaction through their own colored 'minority' lens. Eg. a woman who has been turned down for a job will attribute it to her being a woman and no ot…

I've seen plenty of white guys blame minority quotas and nothing else after being turned down for a job. There is also little evidence that companies are hiring hoards of incompetent people to fill minority quotas. If they were, then why does every tech company still struggle with a lack of diversity in the workplace? It would be easy to just hire whoever can tick a diversity box and fix those numbers, but they're no…

Diversity quotas are absolutely real, and publicly documented all over the place. Activist shareholders are filing resolutions and threatening companies with lawsuits and bad PR. I was involved in hiring at some large tech companies and we had very specific targets to meet, ”or else”. I don’t know how anyone can still deny that this is happening.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#359

Post by JoeAltmaier » Mon, May 04, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

unreal37 wrote: post #341

dandare wrote: post #242

> Only that’s not just Amazon, it’s how 21st-century capitalism is done. I am really tired of all these off-hand attacks on capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system. It is characterized by private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. If you prefer a centralized or shared economy, that is fine, although I was born in a communist country and I bet you have no idea what you wish for.…

Also, there's an argument to be made that America is not actually truly capitalist. The government intervenes in the market all the time, especially now. Nothing big is allowed to fail. $Trillions to keep the party going. That's not capitalism. Even Buffett is sitting this "recovery" out because he can see the lack of a free market.

"No True Scotsman"

Re: Bye, Amazon

#360

Post by Symbiote » Mon, May 04, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #40

wegs wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's also 64. That's near retirement age, and I imagine he can afford to retire early.

I wouldn't dismiss how hard it can be to quit a job you love, just because you're 64. I know people that love doing what they do well in their late 70s, and job satisfaction for them is way more important than any monetary aspect.

There might be charities, non-profits or other organizations that would appreciate his skills.

I remember my dad spent all of about two weeks "retired" (resigned in protest in similar circumstances, but from a staff of maybe 100) before finding a part-time job at a local charity he liked.