Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#351

Post by magduf » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 11:01 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #246

blub wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The WHO constantly downplayed this pandemic and kowtowed to China to the point of disgracefully delaying calling it a pandemic and then playing catch-up when individual countries started ignoring the WHO and implemented their own measures. Then the WHO switched gears and complained that the countries were doing too little too late. They've been almost completely worthless in this crisis.

The WHO constantly downplayed this pandemic and kowtowed to China See also: The whole WHO/Taiwan debacle, which is still ongoing. The WHO is OK risking the lives of people in Taiwan in order to keep the mainland happy. You would think that the WHO would put the health of people, regardless of where they live, ahead of politics.

When has any organization put peoples' lives over politics?

Anyway, the WHO/Taiwan debacle seems to resulted in Taiwan handling this pandemic better than anyone else, considering their proximity to China and the huge amount of trade and travel between them. Taiwan just ignored the WHO and did their own thing, which was the best thing.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#352

Post by magduf » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 11:12 PM UTC

naravara wrote: post #175

TeMPOraL wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's interesting to me that you find this surprising or view it as bad behavior. It's not surprising in the sense that it fits the definition of a "nation state". It's surprising because one would think that in XXI century, people understood that global problems require global coordination; competition of selfish actors fails spectacularly in such cases.

Lots of writing in international relations circles right now about how the slapshod global response to this crisis, in contrast to previous pandemics like ebola and H1N1, is evidence that the era of US hegemony is over. Without a hegemonic entity putting its imprimatur on what the "right way" to do things is, everything ends up being kind of a mess.

I guess we can look forward to Chinese hegemony in the future, since the US doesn't want to do it any more.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#353

Post by yibg » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 11:14 PM UTC

philliphaydon wrote: post #17

hkmurakami wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally enjoyed the hypocrisy of China initially requesting Nations to not "overreact" and close borders to its travelers (mid February), then proceeding to do exactly this towards these same nations (mid March) when things became worse overseas.

During Swine Flu outbreak in 2009 china closed it's borders to Mexico, but turns around and says it's unfair when people close their borders to china. Then proceeded to close their borders AGAIN. facepalm

Seems like a pretty common thing from major powers doesn't it. Maybe it's just human nature? e.g. US banning exports of respirators but throwing a tantrum when India tries to ban the export of hydroxychloroquine.

Not sure what the solution here is, but it certainly does seem it's everyone for themselves in these situations.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#354

Post by threatofrain » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 11:15 PM UTC

chillacy wrote: post #217

surge wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French seized supplies bound for Britain. Everyone is doing it. You always protect your own citizens first, then once you're in a position of strength, then you help your neighbor. If you're both in a hole, you have to get out of the hole first before you help your friend out, otherwise you're just both going to be in the hole. Put your mask on before assisting other passengers, etc. So many analogies, but this is ve…

There's got to be a difference between putting on your own mask first and taking your friend's mask...

But when you don’t make your own masks then the one who does is free to shape their own relations and deals.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#355

Post by magduf » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 11:15 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #310

blub wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is extremely divided. Even in these times the political class and society could not get over their differences. The lack of a social net and out of control capitalism are also massive issues. The president was downplaying the virus. The US doesn't look like the most powerful country in the world, nor as a leader.

Who looks like most powerful country then?

Well it's pretty obvious that China is vying for the position, and the likeliest to achieve it.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#356

Post by yibg » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 11:20 PM UTC

atonse wrote: post #24

systemvoltage wrote: post #9

Actually this pandemic has shown some true colors of many nations. 1) US trying to unsuccessfully hoard supplies, issues with the German testing company 2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. 3) European countries are in-fighting for supplies. Switzer…

As it should be. A nation's government should ABSOLUTELY put its citizens over everything else. Not sure what you would have them do instead? What is happening is unfair to some, but the individual governments are doing exactly what they should be doing, valuing their people above all else.

Does this attitude almost guarantee we don't reach a global optimum? I mean I get the rationale to protect your own citizens or your own tribe of any sort like family. But in the degenerate case when no one cooperates on anything seems like you have a strong likelihood of everyone losing. If you don't help me then I won't help you, and neither of us gets what we need.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#357

Post by pkaye » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 11:20 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #267

guug wrote: post #39

Even if japan (or any other country) manages to pull production back within its boarders, wouldn't China still be more competitive due to cheaper labor/supply chain costs? IMO, the reason why companies outsourced their production to china still holds today. Companies pulling out will be at a competitive disadvantage against companies who don't.

Even if japan (or any other country) manages to pull production back within its boarders, wouldn't China still be more competitive due to cheaper labor/supply chain costs? Not everyone makes purchasing decisions based on price alone. My wife is into vintage things as a hobby. She says the demand for anything "made in USA" has gone through the roof in the last five years simply because people don't want to support Chi…

> China knows this, which is why it has factories in both the E.U. and the United States filled with Chinese laborers churning things out so they can be labeled "Made in {$anywhere_but_China}."

Can you mention one major factory in the US with Chinese laborers?

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#358

Post by apostacy » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 11:26 PM UTC

apostacy wrote: post #342

nybble41 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cheaper workers work for less, but that's not exactly efficiency It is efficiency, really, because it's making better use of an underutilized resource. Over time, of course, the price of labor evens out because the resource is no longer underutilized. > more a question of fairness If it's fairness you want, telling companies to hire locally isn't going to cut it. That's the opposite of fairness, really—you would be…

> If it's fairness you want, telling companies to hire locally isn't going to cut it. That's the opposite of fairness, really—you would be subsidizing local workers whose wages are already higher at the expense of foreign labor that has more need for the income. It sounds to me like you're saying that it is unfair to strangers that you would help out your family first before helping them. Most countries do subsidize…

Anyone care to respond instead of just downvoting?

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#359

Post by kiba » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #323

tomp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I don't understand what efficiency gains this kind of globalization was supposed to bring anyways... A factory in China is just as efficient as a factory in Spain or USA. Obviously, cheaper workers work for less, but that's not exactly efficiency , (1) more a question of fairness, (2) can be done domestically (low-cost immigrant workers) and (3) there's plenty of cheap workers worldwide, not just in Chi…

> Another potential advantage could be, factories are closer to natural resources, but it seems to me that that's not as much a question of efficiency, as it is of lax (enforcement of) environmental standards. Not at all. Being close to your inputs means you don’t have to ship them as far to make use of them. And the shorter the distance you have to ship them, the less you will pay for shipping. Lower overhead equals…

Shipping is very cheap in the era of globalization and containerized shipping so it doesn't mean much.

Companies focused on cost cutting, outsourcing and the like, but in doing so sacrificing agility and deep knowledge, and sometime even cost.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#360

Post by Shivetya » Thu, Apr 09, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

chillacy wrote: post #222

tomp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I don't understand what efficiency gains this kind of globalization was supposed to bring anyways... A factory in China is just as efficient as a factory in Spain or USA. Obviously, cheaper workers work for less, but that's not exactly efficiency , (1) more a question of fairness, (2) can be done domestically (low-cost immigrant workers) and (3) there's plenty of cheap workers worldwide, not just in Chi…

> A factory in China is just as efficient as a factory in Spain or USA. I'm not sure how you're defining efficiency, but in the Netflix special American Factory, it would seem like the chinese workers were not only cheaper but also more productive.

anecdotally, but comparisons of model 3s produced in China showed a much higher attention to detail than those in the US. There appeared to be a strong focus on the product as it represented those who built it. This level of "pride" if you want to call it that is a cultural issue that some nations have lost. While I am not saying workers should put the manufacturer before themselves many have taken that so far as to put themselves before their fellow employees as well.

that didn't happen overnight, that happened by politicians playing people against each other and invoking the all too common negative traits of envy, jealousy, and even anger. The mantras of you did not win life's lottery, its not fair, you deserve, they stole, has really done a number at not just manufacturing levels but in all aspects of life.