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What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

theatlantic.com

351–360 of 474 posts

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly more complicated than I understand, but I see it like this... Case 1: With no UBI the person who works in food service has to live an hour or more out of town and commutes to work each day. This is because their pay is better in town than out of town so it's worth it financially overall. Or they simply are paying more in housing costs than they should, are feeding money up the rent chain instead of sav…

I don’t see how it would reduce the power of landlords. If more people want to live in an area than housing can support, rents will increase to whatever level they can sustain to find the equilibrium where fewer people can afford it. If fewer people want to live in an area than housing supports, rents will fall.

Right, a market where a lot of people suddenly have the ability to move to a less expensive town and not have to worry about finding a job or worry about commute times. They may do so eventually if they wish, but I think this is a huge amount of leverage over landlords and would reduce housing demand.

I'm not saying it's good for San Francisco tech workers, but I don't think rent costing two thirds of your take home pay is historically typical. Based on that history I do not think landlords could effectively collude to keep prices high if people are willing and able to walk away.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#352
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that if it's known that every American adult collects $1000 in addition to their regular income, prices will rise in an attempt to capture some of that known financial excess, so that the net result isn't that everyone gets an extra $1000 in discretionary income, but that everyone ends up paying that extra $1000 back in inflated prices. Similar logic to how raising tariffs doesn't hurt companies a…

> prices will rise in an attempt to capture some of that known financial excess The assumes financial excess. The reason for UBI is that there isn't excess. If 78% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, then that's not excess. If 63% of Americans can't afford an unexpected $500 bill, that's not excess. You're right that inflation happens when there is excess, but given these stats, I don't buy that part of the…

Disclaimer: I live in a relatively prosperous community. My perspective is skewed accordingly.

Your numbers seem fictitious to me. 78% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck? Look at what they are spending their paycheck on. One car per person. 2.1 people per house. 3.2 game consoles per person. A new laptop every 15 months. A new car every 36 months. A new $800 smartphone every 11 months.

Every low-income 10 year old I see is carrying around $1000+ of electronics and treating them like they're disposable. But our school district offers free breakfast to 100% of the students. We have student parking lots for 16 year old kids.

We're all living paycheck to paycheck, but I claim there is still huge excess. Giant houses for average families, computers, ATVs, boats, cars, TVs, 2 movies every night, 4 Amazon deliveries a week, direct access to Chinese suppliers, personal juice presses, occasional cruises.

Air-bnb and uber are not luxuries for 1%ers. These are basic human rights chiseled into the constitution.

There are, of course, truly poor people in the population. But our definition of poor sure has changed a lot in 50 years.

Show me any random collection of 10,000 Americans and I will show you $2 million/year of disposable income without sacrificing a single smartphone or smart TV.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and most of it was spent on paying off debt rather than buying tvs and iPods to stimulate the economy. I know I put my check into my savings account and didn't think about it again.

Isn't that the biggest goal right now? Maintaining a healthy banking and housing system by subsidizing rent, mortgages, debt payments etc? $1000 a month doesn't seem like a stimulus, it seems like a bridge to the other side.

Better than $1000 would be codified protections for tenants or borrowers. Yes, this doesn't have to be an either-or thing, but I'd still want to have the law on my side.

I guess what I mean is that in order to fix, as Yang says, the biggest winner take all economy, you have to do something different than just throw money at it (lest the winners take that, too). The goal should be to address why we're here in the first place to make sure it doesn't happen again (at least not to this level), and not to just barely get by and bounce right back to being one inconvenience away from ruin.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#354
Taking a long-term view, UBI is a good idea, full stop.

Societies' advancements in technology & productivity decrease the effective cost (as percentage of GDP) of meeting the very base needs of a human being. Food, cheap medicines like tylenol & antibiotics, most facets of human life are dirt cheap from a production perspective, and this trend will continue from automation.

This means someone who is currently unproductive can be subsidized to survive for 10 full years, and if there's even a small chance they become a high-productivity individual afterwards then society comes out ahead on net value. The actual numbers depend on how low we can push production costs with automation, but in the limit as human survival cost approaches zero relative to the economy, the only rational decision is to subsidize all human survival and work within that framework to encourage citizens to be even more productive. After all, if someone dies of lack of healthcare, or starves, or lives in the streets and doesn't know how to get back off the streets, that's a net loss to humanity in opportunity cost. If that person had just been subsidized through their hard times, there's a non-zero chance they become high value to society.

UBI allows us to reap these benefits in an efficient manner: using the free market. But, speaking today not in the long term, there are exceptions to the low cost of human survival which would hamper UBI from being effective.

In our (American) society, there are a few base needs that we haven't adequately driven down costs. Shelter mostly, also any healthcare that is more involved than taking a pill a day (notably: seeing a doctor). Humankind in general CAN make these costs low for the most part, but American society in particular has NOT made these costs low.

We need to address the housing & urban development crisis, and we need to address the healthcare crisis.

The housing & urban development crisis is a system of regulations and inaction that have simultaneously limited the amount of housing near desirable locations, while failing to provide efficient transportation to bring people in from less desirable locations. In other words, housing costs are dominated not by the cost to build a house, but the cost of land. This can be addressed by reforming our awful & piecemeal zoning, construction, and transportation systems and their respective regulations. Optionally, some might suggest that we try to fight against the ongoing trends of urban consolidation; if people have a reason to move to upstate new york or the midwest, instead of to NYC, then housing costs aren't a problem. But right now all economic incentives point to moving to NYC metro, given the choices, and personally I don't like to wage war against the tide of the free market.

The healthcare crisis is one of rent seeking by insurance companies upon our awful half-assed nearly-free-market approach to healthcare. Quite simply, people don't have choices (your healthcare options are restricted by your insurance, which is restricted by your employer), and no prices on anything are known ahead of time. This adds up to an ultra-inefficient system. By doing just about anything that stops the rent seeking of the insurance system upon the healthcare system so we can more efficiently treat a healthy society (there are free market solutions, but personally I would put my weight behind medicare-for-all).

In conclusion, if we give everyone $1000/mo, that's going to get funneled into bidding up rent in big cities or surprise healthcare bills. We need to solve these issues with our free market before we take a free market approach to the common welfare; until then I would advocate more targeted approaches that are less likely to invite rent seeking behavior (foodstamps and such).

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#355
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A person that couldn't afford a car can now. I person with a $1k beater car can now buy a $5k car. Wouldn't car dealers raise their prices some value up to $1k because they know anyone coming in that month to buy a car also just received a $1k check from the government? > Someone that was living paycheck to paycheck can now take a breath, buy a TV and a Netflix subscription. Netflix may raise their prices knowing e…

> Wouldn't car dealers raise their prices some value up to $1k because they know anyone coming in that month to buy a car also just received a $1k check from the government? Why would they. They just got more customers. They already have a surplus of supply. In fact, you could make the argument that they could reduce car prices because with more customers you can operate on smaller margins. This is literally operatin…

> They just got more customers. They already have a surplus of supply.

Um, wouldn't that be increased demand? More customers with more money. That's the definition of more demand.

Economics 100 forecasts a price increase under those circumstances.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#356
post #3

The interview here is compelling. Yang's book is even more compelling. But what Yang doesn't do here or in his book is make a powerful case to fiscal conservative spelling out just how universal income will avoid demolishing the economy through inflation. Until this happens, UBI is going nowhere. Although COVID-19 is on everyone's minds right now, it wasn't too long ago that Venezuela, its hyperinflation, and empty s…

There is nothing inflationary about UBI. It's interesting how people think the onus is on UBI proponents to justify why their policy wouldn't cause inflation. Even if it did cause inflation, ultimately it's just a redistribution of wealth, and it still helps those most at the bottom. You mention Venezuela which is a totally different scenario. They had an economy overly dependent on imports paid for by the revenue fr…

There is a large risk of inflation under UBI. You cannot make an honest argument about UBI without accepting this risk.

1. On the margin, UBI reduces employment and production. This contributes to inflation.

2. On the margin, UBI increases consumption of consumer staples. This contributes to inflation.

3. On the margin, UBI increases the velocity of money. This contributes to inflation.

4. Under most assumptions, UBI increases government spending. Either taxes will rise, increasing the real cost of goods and services, or the money supply will increase, contributing to inflation.

UBI advocates should not dismiss these effects outright but should argue that they are small in comparison to the benefits of UBI. The lack of proper consideration of these arguments (and other arguments) by UBI advocates is pretty dang spooky.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#357

Yang was right in the sense that UBI is going to make more and more sense moving forward. I am still unclear how this would intersect with e.g. healthcare needs, which I believe is fundamentally an easier problem to solve for greater immediate effect.

I think the idea here is that people that are sick can actually take time off. If you've worked in these kinds of jobs you show up to work sick because you can't miss a day, because you can't have a smaller paycheck. So a little more money eases this and gives more leverage to workers.

$1000/mo gives you some leverage, but at the end of the day, not being tied to your job just so you can have decent and affordable health insurance gives you more. This doesn't even talk about stuff money can't buy, like mandatory paid sick leave.

Instead of trying to just "ease this", why not try to eliminate it?

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#358
post #282
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing the vast majority of "wealth" is in assets/stocks. That isn't money just sitting around. The value is only realized when those are selled off. They also would owe capital gains tax. So now they gets taxed twice? > The current system is also a redistribution of wealth, just from the bottom to the top. I think that capitalism/free markets has been the biggest driver in bringing people out of poverty. > Tha…

> So now they gets taxed twice? I don't understand this argument. I've seen it so many times among a certain crowd of people, but I still don't get it. Yes, we, mere mortal humans have to form our systems of government using a patchwork of heuristics as we try to approach a more perfect system. Sure, an omnipotent being that knew all outcomes in advance could set a perfect single-tax rate for each person's individual…

>> So now they gets taxed twice?

>I don't understand this argument. I've seen it so many times among a certain crowd of people, but I still don't get it.

Wealth tax makes no sense because if you earned that money, then you have already paid taxes on it. Taxing assets/stocks makes no sense because the value is constantly changing. One day you could have millions and the next you could be broke. Plus, if you had zero cash on hand, you would have to liquidate an asset just to pay the taxes on it?

> Sure, an omnipotent being that knew all outcomes in advance could set a perfect single-tax rate for each person's individual circumstance that only affected their income.

A flat tax would work fine too, and be the most "fair".

> taxing wealth as a correction

I don't think the main purpose of taxation is redistribution. Who says there needs to be a correction in the first place? I don't think people really care about equality, because no one cares about the inequality of the rich vs. the super rich. They care about the lowest end, and if they have at least enough to support themselves. Which if you're making under a certain amount and have kids you pay basically zero taxes. In fact, you may even get money from the government.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#359
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize the top 1% already pay for a disproportionate amount of the taxes? Also they own businesses that employ hundreds of thousands of people. To tax people's wealth on top of the standard tax is plain evil, and will end up driving all the wealthiest people out of the country...

Do they, in real terms? Like, in terms of percent-of-net-worth-per-annum rather than dollars-per-individual? Because I highly, highly doubt that.

> The Pew Center’s analysis of IRS data showed that in 2014, people with an adjusted gross income, or AGI, above $250,000 paid 51.6% of all individual income taxes, even though they accounted for only 2.7% of all returns filed. These “wealthy” individuals paid an average tax rate (total taxes paid divided by cumulative AGI) of 25.7%.

> By contrast, while people with adjusted gross incomes below $50,000 filed 62% of all individual returns in 2014, they paid only 5.7% of total taxes collected at an average tax rate of 4.3% per person.

Source: https://www.thoughtco.com/who-pays-the-most-us-income-tax-33...

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#360
post #3

The interview here is compelling. Yang's book is even more compelling. But what Yang doesn't do here or in his book is make a powerful case to fiscal conservative spelling out just how universal income will avoid demolishing the economy through inflation. Until this happens, UBI is going nowhere. Although COVID-19 is on everyone's minds right now, it wasn't too long ago that Venezuela, its hyperinflation, and empty s…

I’m so confused why this inflation argument keeps popping up. If you’re paying for the Ubi with taxes then there’s no inflation. Net money supply hasn’t changed (0). If you pay for ubi by printing money then yes, inflation would be a problem. But no one has suggested that. (0) I’m willing to entertain an argument about the velocity of money increasing from ubi but I really doubt it would be too significant.

out of curiosity, why not just tax people less rather than offer UBI?

either lower the tax or start offering monthly tax refunds?

would that work as an alternative or equivalent to UBI or am I thinking of something very different?

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