Earlier quoted context omitted.
> floating cities We have decided on Mars, can we stop forking it. Have we learning nothing from Linux? But if you have to, could you hurry up and make a floating city on earth to practice ? People would pay a tonne of money for that, and having floating cities (In reality small communal groups, so more a village) would be very very neat.
> make a floating city on earth to practice? Earth's atmosphere is lighter than the Venusian one at that altitude. A balloon filled with breathable air would float naturally. You can't do that on Earth.
Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live
351–360 of 393 posts
Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it was in Kim Stanley Robinson's "Mars" universe that they colonize Mercury by making an equatorial train, that's pushed along by the thermal expansion of the tracks. Always struck me as nifty, if kinda silly, when you could do the polar thing like you're suggesting.
That was in the novel 2312. Highly recommended for the scope of ideas, however far fetched they're presented well. I'm currently struggling 200 pages into Blue Mars. Great series though (I'm struggling with it due to life getting in the way, as opposed to it becoming a grind - although there's a bit of that too, but it's three 700-odd page novels...)
Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
I expect colonizing the solar system will not be completely practical without genetic modification of the colonists to partially adapt to local environments.
One reason I'm bullish on humans being a stepping-stone to electronic/software life forms, is that we are ill-equipped in every way to meaningfully travel the universe: from short life spans, to radiation vulnerability, to the complexity of converting electrical energy into bio-available energy, to psychological effects of long journeys in cramped quarters. Software-life, on the other hand, can tailor its physical fo…
Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live
#354Earlier quoted context omitted.
A floating habitat on Venus is actually more attractive. Venus (upper atmosphere): -human livable temperatures with modest temperature control -Earth-like pressure (Himalayans) leads to slow leaks that can be patched, and pressure can be increased inside to stop the leaks inward -protected by thick atmosphere from radiation, meteors, asteroids -strong magnetic field against radiation -atmosphere still thin enough for…
I’d throw in if a rotating station is still in LEO (seems likely for a first attempt) it would have the benefit of Earth’s magnetic field for shielding. Not if used for traveling to another body though.
Starting at about 8M55S he decribes some interesting aspects of the so called two day orbit.
Anyways, it is OUTSIDE the magnetic field. But would it really matter if you have the technology to build a space station big enough to have rotational gravity? I'd imagine we'd cover that with regolith mass driven from the moon, or something like that.
Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
One reason I'm bullish on humans being a stepping-stone to electronic/software life forms, is that we are ill-equipped in every way to meaningfully travel the universe: from short life spans, to radiation vulnerability, to the complexity of converting electrical energy into bio-available energy, to psychological effects of long journeys in cramped quarters. Software-life, on the other hand, can tailor its physical fo…
That all makes sense, but if that's the way the universe is, then where are all the alien computer virus radio signals? I think I read an SF story about that years ago, where a transmission was received that gradually convinced people to build stuff, but it hasn't actually happened, right?
- We might actually be the first. Improbable, but the data so far doesn't rule this out. Somebody has to win every lottery.
- The Great Filter might be astronomically difficult to overcome; this is a different sort of improbability, but just because the odds are profoundly stacked against us is no reason to give up.
- A different Great Filter: The dominant AI might be a malevolent apex predator, who consumes any species that begins to spread.
- My favorite answer: electronic "Space Ents", who being quasi-immortal, and live at such vast time scales (say "hello" and patiently wait 10,000 years for a reply), they don't bother attempting communication with such momentary life forms as ourselves. (Both this scenario and the predator one would imply they're good at hiding their energy sources and signals, which they might have good reason to do.)
- Our universe really is a simulation (or some other software substrate). If so, it's possible that whoever is hosting the physics engine is primarily concerned with Earth, and everything else is modeled just well enough enough to give us starlight/etc, not enough to simulate RNA strings and lipid bilayers on simulated alien planets. Obviously this might throw a wrench into plans to colonize the galaxy. :)
Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
> floating cities We have decided on Mars, can we stop forking it. Have we learning nothing from Linux? But if you have to, could you hurry up and make a floating city on earth to practice ? People would pay a tonne of money for that, and having floating cities (In reality small communal groups, so more a village) would be very very neat.
"We have decided on Mars, can we stop forking it. " Who is "we"? I for example, have decided, that we colonize the moon first and then go on from there. But since I sadly do not operate a big space agency/company, my decision is not so relevant (yet). But apart from that, yeah sure, lets build floating cities and (at least partly) self sufficient habitats on earth first, before we try it do it so far away we need at…
Why do people work so hard to get out of a gravity well, only to sink down into another one? The moon isn't bad, but the asteroids are where all the action will be. All the materials a civilization could want, relatively easy to access and move around.
Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
The only thing going for the moon is its proximity to Earth. Mars has more than double the gravity of the moon, an atmosphere, nearly earth-like day night cycle and satellites have a much easier time orbiting mars
The moon has water ice in dark craters, as well as minable ore that contain aluminum, iron, silicon and oxygen. You will "just" need to use heavy mining and smelting gear to extract it. Solar power and batteries should work assuming you're willing to build your base among the "peaks of [near] eternal light" which get sunshine nearly ninety percent of the time.
Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
That all makes sense, but if that's the way the universe is, then where are all the alien computer virus radio signals? I think I read an SF story about that years ago, where a transmission was received that gradually convinced people to build stuff, but it hasn't actually happened, right?
A few possibilities: - We might actually be the first. Improbable, but the data so far doesn't rule this out. Somebody has to win every lottery. - The Great Filter might be astronomically difficult to overcome; this is a different sort of improbability, but just because the odds are profoundly stacked against us is no reason to give up. - A different Great Filter: The dominant AI might be a malevolent apex predator,…
Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end. I did so for the "heart beats". But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly ov…
> But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming. It wouldn't have been hinted at so much in the movie and the movie would not have ended with that quote otherwise. Do you have anything else that points to this? I've watched Gattaca 5-6 times I reckon, and never picked up on a hin…
Other than what I wrote, I can't think of anything else.
> For the heart beats, I've always interpreted it as the world won't give him a chance because _statistically_ he has a low likelihood of success compared to the "guaranteed" success of genetic engineering.
Same. I used to believe it. Now I don't. Sure. It's statistics. But there are actual physical limits and performance. Even though Vincent surpassed the time expectations of his heart ( which was a ball park figure with a margin of error ), he can't surpass the physical limits. He can't run without his heart nearly exploding. That's why he has to cheat. He needs record Jerome's heartbeat. Those tests are to ensure that the astronauts can survive months/years of space travel to Titan and to thrive in Titan. Vincent, at least his heart, can't perform.
Gattaca is a society with unfair genetic discrimination and also fair performance tests. Vincent could be praised for overcoming the unfair discrimination, but he should also be criticized for cheating fair performance tests.
If a legally blind person wanted to drive and cheated his way to a driver's license. Would you cheer him as he sits down on the driver's seat? Of course not.
> As for the "never saving anything for the way back" theme, I've always interpreted that as a part of this too. The idea that statistics aren't everything, going for the "guaranteed" outcome might limit your upside, etc.
Same. I used to believe it. Now I don't. Now I interpret it as someone who has a major inferiority complex and a huge chip on his shoulder that's willing to die rather than lose. Not only is he willing to commit suicide than lose, he's willing to kill his own brother in the process. If you think about what the swim contest was about, it's about Vincent's willingness to kill himself and his own brother. That's why in the second race, when Vincent tells his brother, his brother looks at him in absolute horror and turns back.
Vincent is all too human. The unfairness of society and his lot in life has made him willing to cheat, die and kill to get what he wants and screw over society.
> I'm pretty sure that "going home" isn't a reference to death. In the context of the few lines it's in, he's talking about how maybe he's not leaving because the atoms in our bodies come from stars.
"Leaving this world". "Going home". Returning to the atoms from whence we come from. Like ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
> Finally, for me, there are too many references in Vincent's relationship with Irene that show an intent to return and an expectation that he will.
He left his parents/brothers for good and he loved them. He also left Jerome to his death. Not sure Irene is that much more special. Vincent has shown that people means less to him than his goal. Besides, didn't the flight window between earth and titan open every 77 years or so? Besides vincent doesn't save anything for the trip back.
> The gift of all the samples from Eugene, enough to last a lifetime, backs up this idea.
Last "two" ( jerome's and vincent's ) lifetimes. Do you really think Jerome was able to produce that much blood, urine and skin/hair samples for two lifetimes? The last part of the film, both jerome and vincent were trying their best to avoid the elephant in the room ( their impending deaths ). That dinner scene, vincent asks jerome what he'll do after he leaves for titan. There is an awkward silence followed by silly response from jerome. And then Jerome toasts on his life on titan and asks what titan is like. But Jerome knows vincent is never going to reach titan alive and Vincent knows Jerome isn't going to last long after he leaves.
Besides, if Vincent intended to reach Titan and come back, he'd bring a few samples with him. Samples for id check on titan and of course id check when he arrives back on earth. If they check ids on the way to titan, don't you think there will be id checks on the way back or at least at the destination when he gets off the spaceship? But then again, he doesn't save anything for the trip back. His actions and his last statement makes me believe that he is not too long for this world.
Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live
#360The whole idea of colonizing other parts of the solar system just seems like a fool’s errand to me. Colonizing Antarctica or even the bottom of the oceans seems like a more practical endeavor to me. As uninhabitable as Antarctica is, just think about the advantages it has over a place like Mars or Titan: a breathable Earth pressure atmosphere, 1G gravity, abundant water, not outrageously extreme temperatures, low rad…
Need to cancel that first. Probably with war. What do think is more likely? That happening here without war, or starting "elsewhere" from scratch, leaving the planet of the apes behind?