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Apple store workers should be paid for time waiting to be searched, court rules

latimes.com

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Re: Apple store workers should be paid for time waiting to be searched, court rules

#351

Post by freeone3000 »

eru wrote: post #177
8ytecoder wrote: post #81

As a thought experiment, what if companies are made to pay for commute time? How would that change the labour market? Would they hire local? Provide better transportation? Work with cities to reduce congestion? Encourage more remote work? Decide it's too expensive to hire workers and cut hours? Work towards more inclusive housing?

It would mostly lead to distortions between workers with different commutes. The overall average compensation would change much, but you'd change the distribution between workers. Germany has a system a bit like what you are describing, only that it's the government giving you tax rebates for long commutes. It's not a good idea. Ponder the opposite: why not subsidize short commutes instead and give people assistance…

Honestly, subsidizing short commmutes is an idea I can get behind, even though I feel all of the gains would be captured by landlords.

Re: Apple store workers should be paid for time waiting to be searched, court rules

#352

Post by usrusr »

_ph_ wrote: post #295
s1artibartfast wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It becomes a little more tricky when it is optional, as in this case. The only thing that gets searched is a bag if you choose to bring it to work. The simple solution for ape is to ban bags at work so nobody gets searched.

The simple solution would be to have a locker room where people can leave their stuff they need, but don't want/can't bring into the shop.

But that will only be the second cheapest solution as long as the problem can be made the employees' problem without paying them for it. This ruling won't make employers pay for absurd waiting times, it will give them that tiny nudge that second apparently need to find better solutions.

Re: Apple store workers should be paid for time waiting to be searched, court rules

#353

Post by SamReidHughes »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #334
SamReidHughes wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re going to search your inhaler?

You'll need to bring the inhaler in a bag of some kind, which Apple will want to search.

You could put it in a pocket.

Re: Apple store workers should be paid for time waiting to be searched, court rules

#354

Post by throwaway2048 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #320
throwaway2048 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lets say hypothetically, nearly every farm worker was horribly abused. Would people be hypocrites that shouldn't dare call out that injustice because they need to eat? Acting like participation in a system is some kind of grave strike against protesting terrible aspects of the system is less than helpful, both logically and rhetorically. It is pretty much the definition of tu quoque and a really lazy defence of the s…

>Acting like participation in a system is some kind of grave strike against protesting terrible aspects of the system is less than helpful, both logically and rhetorically. It is that participation that make it impossible for non abusive employers to compete and exist as a business. I know that there is no option in certain businesses, but even the ones where there is an option, it's obvious how price sensitive peopl…

You are supposing the reason why things don't change is because people like cheap goods.

Where is the evidence that cheap goods require worker abuse? Or that the reason people don't oppose it is cheap goods?

Higher wages come out of profits in a competitive market, they don't automatically drive prices up.

I also doubt many people are out in the streets demanding the abolition of minimum wage so they can spend less at walmart.

Re: Apple store workers should be paid for time waiting to be searched, court rules

#355

Post by toxik »

sneak wrote: post #349
toxik wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just use cards. They don't tear. -Scandinavia

https://www.wired.com/2010/12/realtime/ https://www.wired.com/2012/07/wikileaks-visa-blockade/ Blanket, universal surveillance as well as zero-burden-of-proof government point-and-click seizure/disablement is the cost. You cannot have a free society without a payment system that the government or a few large banks do not have the ability to arbitrarily censor, even temporarily. You can not communicate or organize ano…

Hyperbole. People will trade freely if they need to. Cash is not what prevents tyrants from coming to power, democratic societal structures do. Elections do. Having an educated population does. Cash didn’t save anyone from tyrannical rule.

Re: Apple store workers should be paid for time waiting to be searched, court rules

#356

Post by eru »

minikites wrote: post #307
eru wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google and Microsoft are doing pretty well.

Neither of them are the richest companies in the world.

Exactly who is on top depends on how you define that.

Judging by eg Enterprise Value is a reasonable way.

But also, you need to specify what you mean by 'company': lots of companies are actually made up of lots of partially or fully owned subsidiaries. There's no monolithic Apple or Google.

Lots of the details of that structure depend on responses to tax incentives.

See https://www.forbes.com/sites/alapshah/2018/08/02/apple-hits-... for some attempt.

Instead of looking at total value, you could also look at something like profit per employee or revenue per employee. But that's also not quite so clear cut.

Re: Apple store workers should be paid for time waiting to be searched, court rules

#357

Post by eru »

freeone3000 wrote: post #351
eru wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would mostly lead to distortions between workers with different commutes. The overall average compensation would change much, but you'd change the distribution between workers. Germany has a system a bit like what you are describing, only that it's the government giving you tax rebates for long commutes. It's not a good idea. Ponder the opposite: why not subsidize short commutes instead and give people assistance…

Honestly, subsidizing short commmutes is an idea I can get behind, even though I feel all of the gains would be captured by landlords.

You can do this by introducing a carbon tax (that you levy on eg petrol as well) and a road congestion charge.

Distribute the proceeds equally amongst all citizens. And in effect, anyone who commutes less than the average person gets a net positive payment. (Or technically: anyone who uses less carbon or causes less congestion than the average person.. Someone who commutes 100km by bicycle would still get a net payment. That's fine.)

But yes, these you are right, there's a danger that landholders (landlords and owner occupiers) capture the gains, even in my proposed scheme.

You deal with that via a land value tax.

From the point of view of economics, those ideas are orthodoxy. Good luck getting them past any political process anywhere in the world, though.

Re: Apple store workers should be paid for time waiting to be searched, court rules

#358

Post by eru »

2zcon wrote: post #304
eru wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only real working way to do that is to ask them to introduce a congestion charge, which I am all for. Works really well where it was pioneered (in Singapore) and also seems to do an OK job in London. I suspect the Brits ain't as ruthless in applying orthodox economics in general, so they don't solve their problems nearly as well including their congestion problems.

There have been multiple other UK cities with proposals for congestion charges which have been rejected. Transport doesn't really work the same way outside of the M25.

The congestion charge applies only to a tiny area inside the M25.

The congestion charges in Singapore and London weren't popular when they were introduced either. So not sure what rejection elsewhere tells us?

Re: Apple store workers should be paid for time waiting to be searched, court rules

#359

Post by sneak »

toxik wrote: post #355
sneak wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.wired.com/2010/12/realtime/ https://www.wired.com/2012/07/wikileaks-visa-blockade/ Blanket, universal surveillance as well as zero-burden-of-proof government point-and-click seizure/disablement is the cost. You cannot have a free society without a payment system that the government or a few large banks do not have the ability to arbitrarily censor, even temporarily. You can not communicate or organize ano…

Hyperbole. People will trade freely if they need to. Cash is not what prevents tyrants from coming to power, democratic societal structures do. Elections do. Having an educated population does. Cash didn’t save anyone from tyrannical rule.

Lack of cash usage or ability to transact with it has absolutely curtailed people's freedom, though. Privacy is a human right! There is virtually zero electronic financial privacy in the global west today. Everything is surveillance-by-default.
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