We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring • Hacker News Board

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#351

Post by sukilot » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:17 AM UTC

stonejolt wrote: post #207

bcrosby95 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all about the money. People care about professions because "female" professions tend to be paid less than "male" ones.

I assume you mean something like care professions? They don't pay less because it's mainly female workers, they pay less because they can't easily scale the generated profits.

https://www.onlinefnpprograms.com/features/men-in-nursing/

"The ACS also reported that men are more likely to gravitate toward high-paying nursing jobs. The highest representation of men is in nurse anesthesia, a role that often pays six figures. According to the ACS, about 41 percent of nurse anesthetists are men, and their median earnings in 2011 were $162,900. Among nurse practitioners, 9 percent were men making $96,400 per year on average."

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#352

Post by 16bytes » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:21 AM UTC

naasking wrote: post #200

16bytes wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore wasn't fired because he argued that the pipeline shortages largely explain gender disparity, he was fired because he made women felt excluded and othered. He wasn't fired because he argued against diversity, he was fired because he threatened inclusivity. To quote: "I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these diff…

> "Abilities" is the operative word there, as in women, on average, aren't as able Except that quote doesn't imply that women are less able. You could read it that way if you wanted to be uncharitable of course, but strictly speaking, that sentence simply says that women have different abilities, not lesser abilities. One way that sexism presents itself is an underappreciation of valuable skills, where traits that ar…

The original argument was that it is uncharitable to claim that Damore was "exactly" fired for pointing out pipeline problems has an impact on closing the gender gap. That's not what he claimed, and it's not why he was fired.

> One way that sexism presents itself is an underappreciation of valuable skills, where traits that are typical of the dominant group are recognized as valuable and marked for advancement instead.

I agree, but Damore positioned the differences in gender abilities as a "Possible non bias cause" and not because of systemic sexism (of or relating to "implicit (unconscious) and explicit biases are holding women back in tech and leadership").

> "6 foot tall basketball players are at a serious disadvantage in the NBA". This is a clear fact.

This is a bad example because, unlike height in basketball, there is no evidence that dimorphism in humans (size, psychological, hormonal or otherwise) causes any difference in preference or ability in tech culture or software engineering in general.

> There was nothing exclusionary about the memo

You're welcome to that opinion, but many at Google felt otherwise.

> and "othered" is a meaningless term.

The editors at M-W feel otherwise [1] and a one sentence definition is returned by most dictionaries and at least one search engine[2].

> He was fired because his memo caused a PR nightmare, and through no fault of his own.

Again, you're welcome to this opinion but that doesn't change the original claim that he was fired for merely having an opinion about "pipeline" issues affecting the speed at which the gap can be closed. That claim would be uncharitable.

[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/other-as-a-ver... [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=othered+definition

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#353

Post by stevev » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:22 AM UTC

Sure, 50% of boot camp graduates are women. What’s the ratio if we include actual university undergrads gender ratios?

If I’m not mistaken, there are more men going into cs than women here in the US. I don’t think a parity can happen unless equal number of women pursues cs degrees. I believe the disparity is more inline with career choice/goals.

Unfortunately factoring in case studies involving the technical aptitude’s of women versus men in technical hiring, the results are bleak for women; hopefully this changes and I am not saying women are not able to compete; it could be a cultural issue and the low numbers of women entering the field makes it even harder to achieve gender parity.

I find relevance when discussing gender disparity represented in the trucking industry.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#354

Post by f2000 » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:22 AM UTC

sbilstein wrote: post #2

I think it's pretty bold to post something like this. As a person of color, I absolutely observe bias in hiring processes and recruiting...however as someone who majored in CS it's undeniable that we have far less women and minorities going through these programs. After I graduated, my university managed to get the number closer to 60/40 of men vs. women but when I graduated there was just one woman in our graduating…

Working on anxiety can be life changing. I highly recommend the book "When Panic Attacks" by Dr. David Burns. In fact just the other day Dr. Burns had as a guest on his "Feel Good" podcast a tech guy who was rebuilding his web site (https://feelinggood.com/) in exchange for help with his anxieties. In a nutshell, the guy was a "handsome, successful, Yale educated, British" guy who was suffering from anxieties in social situations. Dr. Burns also has a book called "Feeling Good" which is geared more towards depression. Burns is one of the pioneers in cognitive behavior theory. If you're suffering from anxiety and/or depression I highly recommend his books/website/podcast - I will also note that Dr. Burns promotes drug free and rapid recovery that can be accomplished in many cases through "bibliotherapy" - e.g. just by reading a book and , most importantly, doing the exercises/work he recommends.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#355

Post by trophycase » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:23 AM UTC

sakoht wrote: post #182

The exciting thing if you are a hiring manager is that, as long as there is talent that is being passed-over for the wrong reasons, you can beat your competitors in one of the most challenging ares of building a compay by being good at avoiding this error. A friend noted recently that a compounding benefit of hiring a gender-balanced team early is you won't lose female talent you find later when they refuse to join a…

Yes but this is literally the point of an interview. Strip away what it says "on paper" and engage with the person directly. I'd say if they were passing over talent in the past then that's an issue with their interview process.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#356

Post by danans » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:24 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #305

TeMPOraL wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the point of criticizing the criticism of "it's a pipeline problem" is that, wherever you try to improve the pipeline, you cannot expect to make things better than they are at the input of your pipe segment. Working near the end of the pipe, you'll quickly hit diminishing returns. If the input at your segment is biased 4:1, then you can't improve past it. Sure, if your output is 8:1 then it's bad, but you won't g…

The STEM gap is lower in countries with more discrimination against women. > Paradoxically, the sex differences in the magnitude of relative academic strengths and pursuit of STEM degrees rose with increases in national gender equality. The gap between boys’ science achievement and girls’ reading achievement relative to their mean academic performance was near universal. These sex differences in academic strengths an…

> The STEM gap is lower in countries with more discrimination against women. > A mediation analysis suggested that life-quality pressures in less gender-equal countries promote girls’ and women’s engagement with STEM subjects.

In plain English, this is just saying that STEM is seen by women in those countries as a way to economic advancement, which is why they embrace it at higher rates.

This is especially the case in a country like India, which I suspect represents a significant sample of their study.

Added to this, despite those countries having higher overall gender discrimination in, they don't share the US's particular cultural tropes (themselves of pretty recent creation) that imply that women are inherently worse at STEM subjects. Indeed, among middle class educated Indian families, expectations of STEM achievement are as high for girls as for boys, evidenced by the large number of Indian women who became doctors even 2 generations ago.

That educated middle class population is who the tech worker population is being drawn from, which is why their gender representation in tech shows more parity. The paper referenced confuses the overall population for the sample population.

Also, it's not that similar discriminatory tropes don't exist in places like India, but instead of gender, they are projected over other classifications, like language or social class. As a result, the representation of certain linguistic groups and social classes is higher among Indian tech workers, regardless of gender.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#357

Post by sukilot » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:25 AM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #272

ajross wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative hypothesis: law and medicine started proactively working on their "pipeline problem" many decades earlier, and have had time to reach parity. Computer science, in the sense of the modern job market of elite grads going to bay area employers, is barely into its third decade of existence. Seriously: go back to the 50's and 60's and you'll find all these same arguments about how women can't be good doctors a…

Have you considered that women may prefer to heal than to code and when they need to choose a career they choose healing, so this is the real explanation why most doctors in my country are women and most people in IT are men?

What are lawyers healing?

Did women suddenly discover an interest in healing in the past 50 years?

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#358

Post by MarkMc » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:25 AM UTC

stormbrew wrote: post #16

I don't think the point of criticizing "it's a pipeline problem" is that there isn't a pipeline problem, but that it's an easy out to avoid taking action at whatever stage of the 'pipeline' you happen to be working at. If, as an manager at a FAANG, you say "it's a pipeline problem" you're probably saying that there aren't enough candidates because not enough women graduate from ST programs. If you're a program develo…

> it's an easy out to avoid taking action at whatever stage of the 'pipeline' you happen to be working at...you need to look for other ways to find talent that bypass that problem

Another 'easy out' is to simply lower the bar for female applicants

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#359

Post by vinceguidry » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:25 AM UTC

It's important to give the right answers to questions, answers that signal the right intentions. Giving the wrong answers means you don't really understand the situation, and aren't really invested in solving the problem.

So when a young female applicant asks you a question that might not precisely be worded as "why is your company all men with only the white ones in positions of power," it's important to not frame the reason why this is as a pipeline problem. She's not dumb. She knows that.

Because she's not actually asking for the reason. She wants to know if your company has the wherewithal to overcome the diversity problem in spite of the fact that there just aren't a whole lot of women looking for tech careers at present compared to men. Everyone already knows there aren't that many applicants. Everyone knows you can't just hire a woman just because of her gender. That's not the point.

The way you answer this question is to, without right out stating there's a pipeline problem, make sure you've put into place all the other pieces that will cause women to not run screaming to all their friends what insensitive clods you are. Talk about your code of conduct. Talk about your contributions to the cause of diversity. Talk about any issue you had in the past relating to you not understanding people that have very very different life circumstances than you and what your failings were in obtaining a resolution satisfactory to all parties. It's hard to talk about but well, diversity is a hard topic.

Anything but passing the buck.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#360

Post by jonfw » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:25 AM UTC

pksdjfikkkkdsff wrote: post #259

hnick wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you, but such smart and resourceful companies could do something about it. They are not powerless. Companies used to train internally - watch an older TV show (or even something like Better Call Saul) and see how many characters "worked their way up from the mail room". The death of company loyalty goes both ways but I'm sure it can be mended with some effort. Where I work one of the better pro…

But why would you expect women to be more like to choose the approach of not graduating than men, though? Women have the same options to attend university as men. It seems more likely to me that the proportions of applicants without a degree are similar to the ones with degrees.

to build on this- among younger age groups- women are more likely to be college graduates than men.

Women willingly choose different education paths because of different interests.