Earlier quoted context omitted.
Personally I hate it when my PRs come back like this. I made a PR so my code and my decisions could be reviewed and critiqued. If you have some criticism, just tell me what it is and why you think that. I have learnt so much from highly critical PRs, I hate to think where I’d be without them. Personally I think it’s much more productive to create a culture where criticism is made openly and without being taken as a p…
I'm aware of an unofficial convention in some US government departments - if you have a small round green sticker on your pass, then you are opting in as someone who can handle un-sugar coated discussion. It's a great system - you occasionally see someone pause momentarily to check that everyone in the group has a sticker before saying "well, that was a clusterfuck wasn't it".
Help me ask why you didn't just
351–360 of 363 posts
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Some people aren't good at inferring such things. And my advice to those people is exactly what I said: if you're not sure how to communicate what you think is a good suggestion, or how to ask a question you're curious about, without giving offense, because you don't know the people or their work well enough, then don't do anything . That uncertainty you feel is a clue: it means you shouldn't be doing anything at a…
For many people, such advice boils down to "Just be a prisoner of your limitations and don't ever try to overcome them or grow as a person." I cannot fathom why you have such a big problem with someone using a blog post to crowd source suggested wording to try to explore how to do X better.
You are seriously misinterpreting what I said.
What I said applied to a very specific scenario, the one described in the article: you have something you want to tell or ask people when you don't know them or their work very well, and you aren't sure how to say it or ask it without giving offense.
If you don't like the fact that the best thing to do in that situation is nothing--don't tell or ask them--then you have an obvious way to change the situation so that's no longer the only good option you have: get to know the people and their work better. In other words, connect with them, exactly as you describe. Once you've connected with them, you will either know how to tell or ask them what you wanted to tell or ask them, or you will have found out that you don't need to tell or ask them any more, because you have found out the information you originally wanted without having to.
I understand that connecting with people like this is very hard for many people, particularly techies. It's hard for me. But that doesn't mean you should try to avoid it, and I never said you should.
> I cannot fathom why you have such a big problem with someone using a blog post to crowd source suggested wording to try to explore how to do X better.
Because he's doing it backwards. He's trying to tell or ask something potentially offensive to people he doesn't know well, without trying to get to know them better first. In other words, instead of asking how to do X better, he should realize that he needs to do Y first, before even thinking about doing X.
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
The majority of times people have said “why don’t you just...” to me the answer is that if they understood what $thing was trying to do they wouldn’t have asked the question. They’re not being “assholes” they’re just headed toward it from a wrong assumption (they’re assumption is that they understand what $thing does, but they don’t.) so my advice to anyone suggesting just do $x is that they need to try to understand…
Sure, so the answer is 'because I'm doing $thing and $x doesn't work'. They're literally asking _why_. If you take it as a statement i.e. 'just use $x' then that's a completely different matter.
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#354As a society it seems like we're moving more and more to a model of conversation where the onus is on the speaker/writer to communicate in the most obsequious manner possible to avoid offense, while the listener/reader is allowed to interpret what is said/written as offensively as they want.
It's certainly a kind thing to ask "Could we use SSHD here?" instead of "Why didn't you just use SSHD?" But if someone says, "Why didn't you just use SSHD?" I think the person hearing that question has some responsibility to take the question at face value, and not read an insult into it.
Ultimately, the speaker/writer and listener/reader are supposed to have the same goal: to solve the problem in the best way possible. Maybe SSHD is a better solution, and if it's a better solution to use SSHD, then we should use SSHD. That's the entire point of asking the question in the first place: to try to discover if SSHD would be a better solution. But if the person hears "Why didn't you just use SSHD?" and concludes "They must think I'm an idiot", then how are they going to handle hearing "We should use SSHD instead."? I think it's reasonable to expect adults to be able to take this sort of criticism without feeling hurt or getting defensive.
Someone so married to their own work/ideas that they take polite criticism of their work/ideas as a personal attack can't be an effective member of a team, and since they'll always feel under attack for every mistake they make that gets corrected, they will be miserable to boot. This thought process doesn't represent reality: just because you used the wrong tool doesn't make you a stupid person or a bad engineer, and just because someone thinks you used the wrong tool doesn't mean they think you're a stupid person or a bad engineer. I'd go so far as to call this a mental disorder; it certainly fits the DSM IV definition[2].
Smart people and good engineers make mistakes: a big part of what makes someone smart and a good engineer is that they actively seek out people who catch their mistakes.
So sure, strive to communicate in a kind, compassionate way. But also strive to be confident enough that you can take criticism of your ideas and work without taking it as an statement about you, or your value as a person or worker.
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#355You’d think this guy works in an adult daycare center, either that or I’m an asshole. Why didn’t you just ask the question and not worry about how it comes across instead of writing an article about it? :P
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#356You’d think this guy works in an adult daycare center, either that or I’m an asshole. Why didn’t you just ask the question and not worry about how it comes across instead of writing an article about it? :P
I completely agree with you. I've come to the realization recently that most people are incredibly insecure. It's funny that I find this article posted today given that this is something that I'm struggling with and was mentioned to me today. Some of my colleagues have told me that they consider me to be "brilliant" and that they enjoy working with me, yet there are many others who tell me I can't hold a conversation…
Fortunately, doing is a technical skill that can be learned; however, the desire to do so requires first abandoning both that holier-than-thou attitude making flawed inferences about other people's preferences, and the narcissistic belief in your own Socratic importance.
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
To be frank, those hypothetical answers seem very hostile and I wouldn't want to work in an environment where communication works this way. Instead of saying "of course there would be" there could be a bit of a deeper discussion and the two people could figure out the best solution together. It's always supposed to be people against a problem, not people against people.
Yeah, all of their answers show that they never intended to take any advice. If they were a junior developer here, they wouldn't make it to 3 months. If they were a mid-level developer, they'd get talked to about their attitude, and if they continued to be hostile, I'm pretty sure they'd be let go. It'd be a harder decision if they were passively hostile instead of overtly, actively hostile like those comments, but I…
It looks polite because they aren't using swear words, but you can tell there's something up when the original commenters wants to go and give this advice "in private" "for your own good". That's not right. Private is for "your work is all over the place and you are distracted, is there anything I can help with?". It's not for "SSHD handles login failures much more sanely than BLUB". There's nothing about that which needs to be critical or secretive.
Giving well-meaning advice would be something like "Many times when I brought in new tools turned to regret when other people had to deal with them during outages, and when I see BLUB used instead of SSHD it makes me nervous. All N people will have to take time to learn it to integrate it properly with the team, so I strongly recommend unexciting and familiar tools by default; but individual situations are unique and I don't know BLUB well - what is its strength, and does it add enough that we might consider moving everything to it?"
That is - advise what to do ("use unexciting tools"), explain why (backstory with consequences of not following advice in the past), explain who it affects (coworkers in stressful times), share less-obvious concerns (cost of everyone having to learn it), and be open to new information (maybe their plan can add a lot of value).
> and we'd never let a novice with that attitude get far enough to affect things.
A child would never have the power to talk back to power-tripping adult, but an equal adult would. "I want to stop you and interrogate you about some random thing I've noticed without explaining why I want to do that", "Well you can't, I'm busy. Stop power playing and trying to imply you know things and making me beg for them; if you have advice which improves the product, give that advice to everyone."
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#358Really, let's be honest; we want to show off how we would have done it. That's all. How about: > That's an interesting solution! I don't know whether I would have thought of that. My first thought was to use sshd. Can I show you something?
It's possible that this would be an okay tone to use toward a junior developer or an intern. Could it sound patronizing toward a peer, or a more senior developer?
> I would have used sshd, because I am inexperienced and don't understand your approach. Could you help me understand?
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#359If their answer doesn’t include sshd, give them the benefit of the doubt anyway and ask “what happened when you tried sshd?”
To avoid any likelihood of sounding like a jerk, phrase your inquiry in a manner that makes it clear you assume the other person is as smart as you.
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
I find that 3 can become a mental down spiral for the carer. Praise anywhere, criticise anyware, make sure to do it sometimes in public. Otherwise, it becomes a game of fools, which at scale may lead us all to insanity.
Care to elaborate? I don't understand why it's a "game of fools" or how it would lead to insanity. Honest question.
- Pressure on the good actors to communicate using the protocol. Basically being positive at all costs. It creates depression as feelings are constantly suppressed. - No pressure on the bad actors to correct their behaviour. Unless someone with the necessary authority notices the issue and had interests in taking the required action.
A game of fools, because, if a team is mostly made of good actors, then the frustration is tolerable, and perhaps the bad actors can be raised to the level of "good". There is a tipping point though, I've observed, where if the ratio of bad actors gets high, there is less and less of a incentive to do the right thing. Since criticism must be kept to none, or made in private, it becomes a battle of alliances. Things are said quietly. People end up spending more energy in sculpting a great image, rather than becoming better.
It's a game of fools. Fool participants, it's even contagious.
It also somewhat serves management as they only are to then decide how to compensate, promote, lay off every individual without risking any questioning from the contributors (everyone is equal by the sound of things, really)
When I say good and bad actors, I don't mean a category of people is bad while another is good. It's not about the intent, but about skills, performance, agile abilities, knowledge and wisdom.
It's important to have some tact, and respect. But I don't see anything wrong in calling out someone on poor execution. He may learn from it. And so what if it is made in public. Perhaps everyone needs to know. Again, tact and respect, it is not incompatible.