Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#351

Post by Symbiote » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:31 PM UTC

ajayh wrote: post #285

Symbiote wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no* import taxes on any goods moved within the EU. That's a fundamental principle of the thing. The fee to register a car for use on public road varies. It's very high in Denmark (120% of the value or something) but the place of manufacture doesn't affect that. Second hand imported cars still need to pay it. * Exception is the duty paid on alcohol and cigarettes, depending how you define it.

Paying a tax on something you import from the EU which you don't pay if you buy in country is difficult to see as anything other than an import tax, no matter how it is named. See VRT in Ireland for example.

VRT is paid whether you buy a new vehicle from a manufacturer in Ireland or elsewhere in the EU. It's also paid if you buy a new vehicle from outside the EU, but in that case there will additionally be import taxes.

It might be that the administration is different (e.g. the large vehicle importer usually pays it, but you pay it yourself if you're buying some exotic Lotus direct from Britain).

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#352

Post by navigatesol » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:32 PM UTC

iagooar wrote: post #168

It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent. It might even attract people from Poland which is only an hour drive away and has a large pool of very talented and experienced engineers. So far besides maybe Siemens there wasn't too much industry here, which is more present in the south of the country. Being outside of the city center it won't contribute too much to gent…

>It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent.

Like the Gigafactory 2 in Buffalo did for New York state?:

But according to SolarCity’s financial statements, state officials “quietly issued a series of 10 amendments” to Tesla, allowing the high-tech jobs to become regular positions and requiring just 500 hires within two years -- down from 900. Tesla told Vanity Fair it was still responsible for creating 5,000 jobs, but the timing for the additional jobs has been extended to 10 years after the factory’s completion.

SolarCity was the center of the Buffalo Billion corruption probe by federal prosecutors, which last year led to high-profile bribery convictions of several people, including Louis Ciminelli, whose firm won the solar plant construction deal.

https://www.syracuse.com/state/2019/08/elon-musk-is-full-of-...

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#353

Post by eloisant » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:33 PM UTC

agent008t wrote: post #339

mellosouls wrote: post #322

The Brexiteers scoffing at "Project Fear" and crowing about the uppity Europeans begging us for our (UK) car business have been strangely quiet on this one.

To be fair: 1. Brexit hasn't happened yet. I.e. UK has not been able to introduce policies that would make it a lot more competitive and friendly for business than the EU/Germany, make it friendlier for international talent, which is one of the opportunities created by Brexit. 2. We do not know what would have happened had Parliament and civil service been more positive and cooperative on Brexit. It could be a self-f…

The shitshow in the UK parliament wasn't because of remainers, but mostly brexiters not agreeing on what kind of brexit they want.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#354

Post by oblio » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:34 PM UTC

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #325

jakobmi wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Berlin is a great choice, because it excels at the metrics that matter most in constructing a new gigafactory. I believe the most critical metrics are: - cost of construction, including cost of land: extremely low in Berlin - cost of labour/wages: extremely low in Berlin - standard of living: very high, healthy - reachability: near Airport, highways, railroad - location within Europe: Germany/Berlin is perfec…

I agree with the rest of your list, but German wages are not "extremely low" compared to, say, Romania.

Romania's infrastructure is crap, though. Shipping those cars would probably be quite a bit more expensive. Also, the workforce is on average less educated and way fewer highly educated foreigners would be willing to relocate to Romania.

Source: I'm Romanian, I've been to Germany repeatedly.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#355

Post by Symbiote » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:35 PM UTC

Jommi wrote: post #330

Symbiote wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no* import taxes on any goods moved within the EU. That's a fundamental principle of the thing. The fee to register a car for use on public road varies. It's very high in Denmark (120% of the value or something) but the place of manufacture doesn't affect that. Second hand imported cars still need to pay it. * Exception is the duty paid on alcohol and cigarettes, depending how you define it.

Right you're correct. Yet it's basically the same function.

It is a completely different purpose.

Denmark has high taxes for registering a vehicle for public use to pay for road construction or maintenance and to discourage car use (or rather, to make the people using the roads pay their way).

The EU has import taxes on vehicles to protect its own vehicle industry, to both maintain that industry and the jobs within it.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#356

Post by jowsie » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:38 PM UTC

SEJeff wrote: post #148

chiph wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They need some good engineers, sure. But what they really need is someone who can produce better welds.

Nah that’s SpaceX, not Tesla. The S and X use a lot of friction stir welding, which machines do anyways not humans.

A human still has to configure that machine.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#357

Post by baybal2 » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:45 PM UTC

neuronic wrote: post #244

lnsru wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting what kind of talent one needs for a factory. Engineers? I doubt... These will be simple workers, couple equipment operators with some education. All the blueprints are coming from Tesla’s HQ anyway, so not much engineering needed. There is also Tesla in Germany that does all the engineering: https://teslagrohmannautomation.de/de/

You are thinking of engineering the cars itself. However, in a factory like this, engineering is much more than that. Engineering, maintaining, and improving the factory won't be an exclusive gig from across the Atlantic (+ Great Plains + Rockys). Aside from that, Brandenburg is rich grounds for the other staff a factory needs. You can combine cheaper EU-labor with mid-range jobs very well in Germany. The only thing…

Having real engineers with 6 years education on assembly lines is very important, and I'd say that's one of the reasons why China has so much success in manufacturing.

Without engineers among line workforce, there will be nobody to spot and correct tiny manufacturing defects and mistakes in the design that would otherwise be quietly "duct taped" and forgotten.

For my 10 years in OEM manufacturing, I haven't seen a single design that the factory people didn't send back to the client without a long "to fix" list. And those designs were coming from rather serious clients, with serious in house engineering.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#358

Post by Symbiote » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:46 PM UTC

eloisant wrote: post #350

C1sc0cat wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shows you how bad Brexit is for the UK that Tesla chose Germany over the UK. Maybe like Italy we need reserved seats in the House of Lords for Engineering and STEM peers.

I don't know, without Brexit Tesla might have chosen Germany anyway. There are many good reasons that have already been cited why Germany makes sense, additionally when you're building cars for a whole continent, for shipping reasons it makes sense to build a factory in the middle of it rather than an island on the side.

Britain has excellent sea connections, several existing large car manufacturers take advantage of that. (Germany does too, with river transport.) I doubt the land transport makes a significant difference either -- a good rail network extends across the whole EU, and there is car manufacturing in Spain, Romania etc.

I'm not going to pretend I'm in any way able to make a reasonable comparison, but companies like Ford and Nissan appear to have had no intention to move their UK manufacturing to Germany.

Tesla certainly considered it: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/tesla-cit...

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#359

Post by SEJeff » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:47 PM UTC

jowsie wrote: post #356

SEJeff wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah that’s SpaceX, not Tesla. The S and X use a lot of friction stir welding, which machines do anyways not humans.

A human still has to configure that machine.

Yeah, but it takes a lot less of them than it does to manually weld. I’m not saying this is better or worse, but stating what it is.

Re: Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

#360

Post by abstractbarista » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:49 PM UTC

Seeing a lot of comments saying their choice is good because it won't contribute to gentrification.

Doesn't sound right to me. Why is that the first~third thing you're mentioning? It's almost like we scorn the concept of more people working in an area towards a positive goal (renewable transport). Yikes.