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قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

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Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#351

Post by big_chungus »

pgcj_poster wrote: post #319
jiofih wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it’s a good joke, in reality it does not compute. “Learning a new language” as in programming language, sits in the days-to-months range, while “learning a new language” as in Arabic takes months-to-years, so you’re building a much, much deeper chasm for others to cross and contribute, even though the source code remains English-based. You can already see this happening with some open source libraries coming fr…

If it's completely impossible to work on something that uses a foreign language, then it must be pretty important for people to be able to program with the language they already know.

There is an obvious difference; English is still the lingua franca. If you're dealing with anything international, you use it because everyone has a decent shot of knowing it; assuming most oss isn't confined to a single nation, english is still the best choice. Plus, for this reason, other nations are usually much better than America about teaching a foreign language.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#352

Post by lallysingh »

coldtea wrote: post #152

> Code is written entirely in Arabic, highlighting cultural biases of computer science and challenging the assumptions we make about programming. There are lots of "cultural biases in computer science" -- in UI, neural network training, encodings, terms of service, etc. Of all of them, this is the least helpful, and the least important. It's like doing math in local notation, or translating latin/greek terms doctors…

The value of this language is as a tool to expose those biases. Some of them may be stupid and holding us all back.

As for the ATC analogy, software normally works by interfacing with systems written in other languages. Python to C-based glibc to the asm trampolines in the kernel.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#353

Post by monoideism »

kmlx wrote: post #196
varelaz wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people don't speak English and I think it's main barrier to become a programmer or QA engineer.

it's much much easier to learn coding than to learn English. i have coworkers that don't speak English but have no problems coding.

Well, for people like us, obviously. I have many friends who are multilingual, and who can easily learn a 4th or 5th language if they want, but who have/would struggle with the logical and mathematical facilities required to code.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#354

Post by thomascgalvin »

pgcj_poster wrote: post #135

This is at best useless, and at worst harmful. If we start using languages other than English for code, then we'll end up balkanizing the software world. People in humanities departments can talk about things like "Chinese Poetry" and "Continental Philosophy," but in STEM, we should be above that nonsense. I should be able to read code written anywhere in the world and understand what it does. This is the same reason…

> I should be able to read code written anywhere in the world and understand what it does.

I can't read the code written at my desk a week ago and understand what it does.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#355

Post by jandrese »

thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #344
fxj wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is valid python3, try it out. 數字 = 23 運行 = True 假 = False 整數=int 輸入=input 印出=print while 運行: 猜測 = 整數(輸入('輸入一個數字: ')) if 猜測 == 數字: 印出('恭喜, 你猜對了.') 運行 = 假 # 這會讓循環語句結束 elif 猜測 See: http://reganmian.net/blog/2008/11/21/chinese-python-translat...

You can write Perl in Latin or Klingon: Latin from https://metacpan.org/pod/release/DCONWAY/Lingua-Romana-Perli... : use Lingua::Romana::Perligata; adnota Illud Cribrum Eratothenis maximum tum val inquementum tum biguttam tum stadium egresso scribe. da meo maximo vestibulo perlegementum. maximum comementum tum novumversum egresso scribe. meis listis conscribementa II tum maximum da. dum damentum nexto listis decapita…

Congratulations! You have discovered the absolute nerdiest activity on the planet. Writing Perl in Klingon.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#356

Post by SiempreViernes »

jcelerier wrote: post #270
pgcj_poster wrote: post #135

This is at best useless, and at worst harmful. If we start using languages other than English for code, then we'll end up balkanizing the software world. People in humanities departments can talk about things like "Chinese Poetry" and "Continental Philosophy," but in STEM, we should be above that nonsense. I should be able to read code written anywhere in the world and understand what it does. This is the same reason…

that's certainly funny up to the day where you have to debug a codebase where all the function names and comments are in japanese. Also, I lost so much time searching for issues in badly-localized error messages that I nowadays just set my computers in english even though it's not my main language. It's just more efficient.

Eh, I had to support a codebase where the comments where in inproperly encoded cryllic. But happily the code was a php app that had lots of large hand crafted if soups for handling dates, so I'm pretty sure the comments were useless anyway.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#357

Post by elangoc »

pgcj_poster wrote: post #329
fxj wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is valid python3, try it out. 數字 = 23 運行 = True 假 = False 整數=int 輸入=input 印出=print while 運行: 猜測 = 整數(輸入('輸入一個數字: ')) if 猜測 == 數字: 印出('恭喜, 你猜對了.') 運行 = 假 # 這會讓循環語句結束 elif 猜測 See: http://reganmian.net/blog/2008/11/21/chinese-python-translat...

I don't know any Lisp, but I wonder about doing something like this in one, since if I understand correctly, even things like conditionals are functions. I'm sure it would be possible with macros, but I wonder if you make a Chinese Lisp just by redefining functions.

Indeed!

https://elangocheran.com/2014/10/30/exploring-programming-in...

https://youtu.be/MqjMZNwnYCY

Although I started the above project around the same time as Ramsey started his project in the original link (CLisp in Arabic), they were two entirely independent things. Ramsey's project is a 100% translation, whereas my project scales to other natural languages but is not a 100% translation.

Tim and I worked on trying to make programming in other languages easier as a means to help more kids learn programming, and learn FP the Lisp way, which we explain as more natural.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-53JoGPE4

https://power-turtle.com/#freestyle

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#359

Post by ISL »

jiofih wrote: post #251
pgcj_poster wrote: post #135

This is at best useless, and at worst harmful. If we start using languages other than English for code, then we'll end up balkanizing the software world. People in humanities departments can talk about things like "Chinese Poetry" and "Continental Philosophy," but in STEM, we should be above that nonsense. I should be able to read code written anywhere in the world and understand what it does. This is the same reason…

While it’s a good joke, in reality it does not compute. “Learning a new language” as in programming language, sits in the days-to-months range, while “learning a new language” as in Arabic takes months-to-years, so you’re building a much, much deeper chasm for others to cross and contribute, even though the source code remains English-based. You can already see this happening with some open source libraries coming fr…

For centuries in the sciences, it was essential to know more than one language in order to be able to keep up with developments worldwide. As recently as our parents' generation, it was a graduation requirement for doctorates.

That English has become the lingua franca [1] of the world is a recent development. If we would like people to read our documentation, it is reasonable to expect that we should do our best to learn how to read theirs, too.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#360

Post by currymj »

coldtea wrote: post #152

> Code is written entirely in Arabic, highlighting cultural biases of computer science and challenging the assumptions we make about programming. There are lots of "cultural biases in computer science" -- in UI, neural network training, encodings, terms of service, etc. Of all of them, this is the least helpful, and the least important. It's like doing math in local notation, or translating latin/greek terms doctors…

I am a native English speaker in the US and to me it seems palpably unfair. People much smarter than me have to spend a lot of time struggling with a foreign language, and are still unfairly perceived as less intelligent than native speakers.

I could imagine it might be less unfair in a situation, like in much of Europe, where nobody is a native English speaker but many speak it (sort of like Latin at one time). And there are of course huge benefits from a standard language. But it still bugs me.

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