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Google Is Eating Our Mail

tablix.org

351–360 of 720 posts

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#351

Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems. It's big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn't received, the intended recipient will say, "I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you." And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world. I wish this was just paranoia, but we've seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and po…

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

Why can't I even upload a simple text file to hangouts

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#352
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects This is wrong. The current situation is "if you want to reliably contact gmail users you need a gmail address". This is no different than Facebook or messengers. And that may actually be the incentive for Gmail being such a bad player compared to everybody else.

(also @reaperducer) Something I didn't fully appreciate until I got here was: 1. Work (aka enterprise) sends much more email than consumer, and 2. Outlook dominates enterprise. Their market share is pretty astounding. I assure you there is a lot of email coming from Outlook/Exchange.

My employer is one of those enterprises; we host our own Exchange server on our own hardware on our own IP address.

I suspect that is not super relevant to this conversation, because there are a lot of signals that Google can use to see that we’re a big fish, and therefore automatically tread more lightly on the SMTP bouncing. We’re running Exchange, for one thing, which is not cheap or easy to use. We’re in the IP address of a big enterprise ISP. We have other enterprise services running on adjacent IPs, like OWA and websites.

Small personal email servers have none of those sort of “ambient” signals; they’re probably running open source email server software on a single IP coming from a consumer ISP or general data center IP space.

So the question might be why Google seems to react more to those ambient signals than other email providers. Because we have no issue at all getting personal emails into a Gmail inbox.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#353
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this I just happen to have set up an email server and encountered the same problems with Google as described in the article. I own the IP since quite some time, it is not on any black list, reverse DNS is set up etc. but Google rejects email as spam. And this even happens when the gmail account has added the sender in his address book and has send the first email to…

It's not just small fries getting hit by this. Google regularly refuses to deliver mail from backerkit.com to my account, by far the most popular Kickstarter fulfillment support service. I frequently have to contact Kickstarters and ask them to manually send me mail because Google is refusing to accept it, which is annoying and wastes their time. I wish Google had a way you could tell it "messages from these people/d…

[deleted]

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#354
post #161
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be a fair sentiment for an educational institution (you're not directly making money from email sending / hopefully admissions marketing doesn't have this problem), but as a candidate I'd be extremely concerned if a company I was going to work with A) couldn't deliver to gmail and B) held the view that it was everyone else's problem. As it is you're statistically leaving half the candidate pool at the door,…

Judging by what ends up in my gmail, very few people "can deliver to gmail" in any kind of reliable fashion. It depends entirely on how messed up the spam filtering is for individual accounts. The only reason I'm still on Gmail is that it's so entrenched in my life that tidying things up to move is a massive pain and will take a long time (and no, forwarding is not a reliable solution; my experience is that even forw…

Getting started now will make it easier though. I just bought a domain, and started emailing from it and using it for new accounts. I still use both emails, but I always reply from the new one. It's a slow transition, but quite a smooth one (I have email clients that can show an unified inbox).

I still have quite a few a accounts under Gmail, but I'll probably do a full change this year.

Having control of my email is very important for me. Google could close my account for any number of reasons (billing dispute, hacked account, etc), and I would lose my actual address since the domain isn't mine

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#355
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the response. From someone who has operated a mail server since 2002, it comes across that Gmail does not care about cooperating with small but legitimate mail servers. SPF, DKIM, reverse DNS, no blacklists, no open relay, longtime ownership of IPs, etc etc. Using various mail testers returns a 10/10 deliverability score. And yet, messages sent to Gmail always go into the spam folder, or are never delive…

I've had gmail send the following to the spam folder: - Legitimate class action notices related to Amazon purchases. - Email coming from addresses to which I had already sent email. (!) - Email from my landlord. - Email coming from Google itself. Based on the contents of my spam folder, which I have to check fairly often because of the extreme overaggressiveness, I would be vastly better off if nothing ever got filte…

You know what's really funny? That even with that overly agressive spam filter, once in a while (once a quarter maybe), it somehow manages to miss obvious BuY@@NiGERiAn@@Vi@gRa-Cia1is type of emails... which, by the way, my morally outdated spamassasin marks as spam.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#356
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google seems to have entered terminal senility. In my circle of friends googles search engine is pretty much useless, they have killed all the useful applications we used and now this. I can't help but think that we are seeing the google transition to late 90s microsoft now.

What do you mean by "In my circle of friends googles search engine is pretty much useless"

I mean that artists are unironically using bing as a better alternative for image searches, academics have gone back to tracking citations + libgen/scihub to find information and programmers are using duck duck go to debug their code.

This is a huge problem since these people used to be the core of googles search user base.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#357

The last time a company screwed with e-mail at scale was Earthlink. Remember for a couple of years, every time you'd send a message to someone at Earthlink, you'd get an automated rely demanding that you verify yourself before the message would go through? Now I can't remember the last time I saw an @earthlink.* e-mail address. Google has apparently learned from that and put the "error" in the 550 messages, where the…

Here's the problem with inline filtering of SMTP transactions.

1) The RFCs mandate a server to accept multiple recipients--100 minimum per RFC 5321 (inherited from RFC 2821 and RFC 821).

2) A server can only accept or reject a message for all recipients.

Theoretically a global rule shared across all recipients could be implemented in a way that rejects at the transaction level. But because you also have to implementing lazy, per-user filtering (or more importantly, per-user whitelisting), in practice the architectural and engineering focus is on filtering after accepting the message and closing the transaction.

Without the ability to provide immediate and accurate failure responses upstream, filtering issues are left to metastasize and fester. (Because of spamming and spoofing mitigations bounces are next to worthless in terms of proper integration into the end-to-end software stack.)

One of two things needs to happen with SMTP.

1) RFCs drop the requirement for multiple recipients per transaction.

2) An extension mechanism is added that permits per-recipient transaction responses.

I think the only practical option is #1. Both cases require some amount of infrastructure patching, but for #1 it's extremely minimal and in most cases none at all. #2 is infeasible, at least without #1 preceding it (i.e. once you can no longer rely on batch sending as part of the basic SMTP command set, you'll have to support the extension.)

Once that's accomplished vendors who don't implement inline filtering can be rightly criticized and shamed. As inline rejections become more prevalent, mail being effectively black-holed will become a thing of the past and we'll finally begin to see proper back-pressure (literal and figurative) return to the e-mail network. There'll be more pressure on large vendors like GMail to improve their systems and policies once the fog of complexity and plausible deniability lifts.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#358

Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems. It's big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn't received, the intended recipient will say, "I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you." And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world. I wish this was just paranoia, but we've seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and po…

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

Have you guys considered an automatic system with collateral. I'll gladly sign a contract stating that I will be under X% bounce rate for the next month and put some collateral (depending on the email volume requested). At the end of the month you get your collateral back.

It's a purely economic and automated solution that should work well enough for small operators (collateral for a small email volume should be small since spammers really need high volume)

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#360

Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems. It's big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn't received, the intended recipient will say, "I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you." And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world. I wish this was just paranoia, but we've seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and po…

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

Small anecdote: The acceptance email to my universities study abroad program landed in my Gmail spam folder. An email that I had 5 days to react to or someone else gets the spot.

I thought it's great that I have so rarely stuff in my Gmail spam folder that I don't even have to check it regularly until I nearly missed a very important email. Apparently I was lucky that ot didn't get outright rejected.

I rather have to deal with some spam than to miss important, or even regular, emails.

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