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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

nytimes.com

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Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#351

Post by asdffdsa »

specialist wrote: post #336
asdffdsa wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, "intolerance" is an arbitrary distinction, especially over time and especially now. In sites like Patreon, Youtube, or Reddit which apparently presume to operate as a free marketplace to identify, discuss, and promote ideas, censoring those which merely hate (rather than actively condone actual/specific acts of violence) sets the precedent toward greater and more arbitrary censorship (whether people t…

Freedom Markets™ (laissez faire) means we all define intolerance however we want. Unless you believe corporations have any sort of obligation to the society they function within.

Of course they do; do you have a more specific point or argument?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#352

Post by zepto »

beat wrote: post #297
remarkEon wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the line cannot become "tinfoil hat types" because that is a completely undefinable measure. People who correctly predicted the 2008 financial crisis were considered "tinfoil hat types". Should they have been dropped off these platforms because they sounded crazy at the time?

Surely you see the difference between the "sounds crazy" of predicting a market collapse, and the "sounds crazy" of saying we should deport or execute all Muslims (as a for example).

If the difference is so obvious, why do we need to censor?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#353

Post by nkurz »

manfredo wrote: post #334
nharada wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you should get to walk back your shitty comments by claiming you were just joking the whole time. Based on this guy's past behavior, I don't think anyone is giving him the benefit of the doubt here either.

It is obvious that much of this speech was sarcastic. To the point that I would say that it requires willful ignorance to say otherwise. Take for instance: > And I see, like, 'kikes are ruining everything'. [laughs] Good—good—good job... You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis! Great! Bravo!" Is it your genuine belief that the statement "You're making your movement look like you're not full of…

I agree, if not sarcasm, "kikes are ruining everything" was clearly intended as mockery. I listened only the to the first part of the video, and then grabbed quotes from the transcript. If I'd understood the context, I wouldn't have included that one as an example.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#354

Post by warp_factor »

I deleted my patreon account last week. I feel sorry for the artists I supported every month, but I cannot in good conscience continue to support any service that erodes cultural free speech anymore.

As I see it, the radical left is on a course to set humanity back a couple hundred years.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#355

Post by arkades »

zamalek wrote: post #120
orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

> The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them.

This made a lot of sense when I was a kid. Since that time, communication has become incredibly centralized - whether it’s the platform (eg, YT), or the infrastructure to keep it running (eg, Cloudflare.)

Today, if one or two private enterprises decide they want to eliminate your voice, you’re effectively barred from the public square. You can’t roll your own cloud flare.

When private resources so entirely consume our public interactions, the old stand-by of “well, private companies can do what they want...” seems to engage in a form of category error. It may be a private organization, but it’s dominating a public good.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#357

Post by aeternus »

zepto wrote: post #342
TulliusCicero wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And at some point, that means it becomes virtually impossible to express yourself if your views are unpopular enough. This is how free speech has always worked, though. You could always get on a soapbox in a public plaza and rant, but the potential engaged audience there is pretty small. If you wanted a real audience, even in older times you would've needed a newspaper to print your thoughts, or a publisher to help…

Except that they aren’t necessarily highly unpopular. They are just outside of the political norms that happen to be popular within a small class in control of the platforms.

If they aren't highly unpopular then there should be a demand and market for services/platforms that do allow those opinions.

Even though not as large, another company/service should be able to fill the void.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#358

Post by smrtinsert »

coffeemug wrote: post #338
zamalek wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

> Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. People keep saying this and repeating it, but as far as I can tell this meme is destructive and wrong. Freedom of speech isn't just a legal assurance that congress shall make no law abridging it. It is also a set of cultural norms rooted deeply in a long lineage of hard won ideas. It is Evelyn Hall's principle "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the de…

This is total crap. That norm was long abandoned. Absolutely no one on the right defends freed of speech as a cultural norm. The modern right uses "freedom of speech" as a proxy to discriminate/marginalize and spread hate speech.

Edit:Boohoo, I offended the snowflakes.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#359

Post by marcosdumay »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #254
CM30 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is; where does it end? Sure, I guess you could say Patreon has the right to ban people from its service. But people have found its not easy or practical to compete with them. They've found everyone from their domain registrar to their website host to their payment processor refusing to do business with them. And at some point, that means it becomes virtually impossible to express yourself if your views a…

> And at some point, that means it becomes virtually impossible to express yourself if your views are unpopular enough. This is how free speech has always worked, though. You could always get on a soapbox in a public plaza and rant, but the potential engaged audience there is pretty small. If you wanted a real audience, even in older times you would've needed a newspaper to print your thoughts, or a publisher to help…

That's how speech works since the concentration of press at the middle of the XX century, and I don't think there's anybody claiming it was a good thing. It has never before been that way.

The internet did break the press oligopolies, and brought some free exchange of ideas, carrying large changes. But instead of staying a platform where ideas can compete as equals, it is consolidating again on the hand of a few all-powerful individuals.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#360

Post by creaghpatr »

zamalek wrote: post #316
dkersten wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres a fine line between “being allowed to throw a loud ranting racist out of a pub” because the pub is your business and you should be allowed to choose who to do business with and you don’t like racists... and throwing out a person of a different race because it’s your business and you should be allowed to choose who to do business with and don’t like that race... That is, we want businesses to have the right to…

> who to do business with and don’t like that race... Although not the historical reason, a far simpler one is: you can change your mind and ideas but can't change your race. In addition, it is that behavior and not that belief that gets the racist removed from the premises. You can choose to be quiet about your ideas where they are not welcome, but you can't choose to not be your race where it is not welcome.

So if being black was a choice you would be okay with businesses discriminating against black people unless they chose to be a different race?
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