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Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

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Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#351

Post by cft »

Scoundreller wrote: post #239
dragonwriter wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A simple button on the fob (rather than in the car) that you must press to open the doors and to start the engine would mitigate the attack. Yes, reverting from passive-supported to active-only remote entry/start would eliminate the attack by eliminating the feature on which it is based. OTOH, the handsfree nature of passive remote entry is a major selling point.

As long as they’re not susceptible to replay attacks. If they are, just do a stakeout and then replay it later in the day to gain access.

A challenge-response notification would not be susceptible for a replay attack

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#352

Post by ams6110 »

reassembled wrote: post #347
thaumasiotes wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does she unlock her front door? For many people, there's no need to unlock the front door because it's never locked. Having to lock your door just means you're living in a terrible neighborhood.

Even if you live in a "good"neighborhood you could still be burgled by someone casing the neighborhood/home. Do people really not lock their houses when they leave? My parents always taught us to lock the house on the way out, even when we lived out in the country.

I often don't lock my house. But when I'm not there, there's a dog on the front porch who doesn't like strangers.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#353

Post by ams6110 »

jamescostian wrote: post #249
nkrisc wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I was making a joke, but I was also semi-serious. I personally wouldn't mind that the car unlocks based on the fob's proximity, but requires insertion of the key for ignition. I currently drive a 2009 car with the usual key fob and my biggest issue with it is not having to insert it to start the car, but unlocking the doors while my hands are full. Once I'm seated in the driver's seat I'm not carrying anything a…

> unlocks based on the fob's proximity Unfortunately, that would be vulnerable to theives unlocking your car and taking everything in it. For me, the biggest convenience of fobs is the ability to start the car and have AC on so that the car isn't burning/freezing when I get to it

I never like to have the car running when I'm not in it. If it's low on oil, or overheating, etc there's nobody watching the gauges.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#354

Post by caf »

bacon_waffle wrote: post #345
caf wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a MEMS accelerometer would be a very cheap mitigation.

Assuming you could do that without killing the battery, then it wouldn't provide a benefit for people like me who keep their keys in their pocket. My personal solution is to not drive often, and when I do it's a 1996 Subaru. ;)

I think it would pretty easily differentiate between "keys in your pocket" and "keys sitting on bedside table for several hours".

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#356

Post by ken »

jwcacces wrote: post #333
burtonator wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why we can't have some sort of challenge response protocol to prevent MITM...

The key fob does use challenge-response, the thief just uses a glorified range-extender to get the car started with the key normally out of range. The car stays on once started. There's no MITM involved.

Huh? The diagram in the article shows two men ("Thief 1", "Thief 2") between the fob and the car, with arrows showing communications going from fob to thief to car. According to the first sentence of the Wikipedia MITM article, that's the very definition.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#357

Post by stretchwithme »

gnicholas wrote: post #233
entee wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could simply putting the thing in a foil/metal lined drawer in your entryway do the trick?

I've watched some DIY videos and am considering doing just this. I'm not sure how tight a seal you need though (one video said you want overlap from lid to sides/bottom), and the draws we have there aren't super tight. Maybe we'd make an enclosure within the drawer and be able to line that sufficiently? If anyone knows how much leakage there would be for fobs/phones, and whether it makes a difference for this applica…

Would be easy to test what is needed. Wrap up your keys and take them to the vehicle.

I just completely wrapped my remote with one layer of aluminum foil and that was enough. A small gap on side was enough for the car to detect it.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#358

Post by b1r6 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #327
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does she unlock her front door?

> How does she unlock her front door? For many people, there's no need to unlock the front door because it's never locked. Having to lock your door just means you're living in a terrible neighborhood.

Very wrong. Criminals travel. Leaving your front door unlocked is madness, just waiting to see who will come.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#359

Post by sethammons »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #327
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does she unlock her front door?

> How does she unlock her front door? For many people, there's no need to unlock the front door because it's never locked. Having to lock your door just means you're living in a terrible neighborhood.

Growing up, we did not even have a key for our house. Lots of places around the US, there is no need for keys. It is really hard for some people to grasp the idea based on how and where they grew up. My wife grew up in a gang riddled area and will not abide unlocked doors if we are out and about.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#360

Post by wbl »

burtonator wrote: post #296
jamescostian wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if this is a joke about old keys being better, but I'd argue you could have the benefits of new keys and old keys combined if you just made it so that new keys have to be inserted into some compartment inside of cars, where they are authenticated by those cars. You can imagine a fob with a USB that has a different authentication code than the wireless one it sends out, and unless the USB is plugged into…

I'm not sure why we can't have some sort of challenge response protocol to prevent MITM...

All the thief does is amplify. Good luck!
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