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Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

lists.gnu.org

351–360 of 412 posts

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#351
post #2

> Please assume other participants are posting in good faith, even if you disagree with what they say. When people present code or text as their own work, please accept it as their work. Please do not criticize people for wrongs that you only speculate they may have done; stick to what they actually say and actually do. That's a breath of fresh air. There's always someone who tries to read between the lines and straw…

> That's a breath of fresh air. There's always someone who tries to read between the lines and strawman people for what they did not say/express.

Lately strawman arguments seem to have become much more common under the guise of "virtue signalling" or "dog whistling".

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#352
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, like mirko said, being pressured by project leader to merge absolute crap (I was in charge of merging), "because it works and we don't want to suppress less skilled colleagues". "Try to explain nicely how to do it better" while that other guy a) doesn't want to learn and b) has feelings that are more important that making better software / learning. Edit: to clarify, that other guy couldn't understand the proje…

Hey, I don’t know your situation so this may be nonsense, but what you describe doesn’t sound so PC. The guy’s code worked? Doesn’t sound unreasonable that the project leader would want it merged. Put the technical debt on the backlog, get on with writing other code that works. The project leader presumably had a team to manage. Seems perfectly understandable that they would want all their team contributing, even if…

A low-quality codebase slows down everybody on the team and causes tasks that ought to be routine to hit unexpected roadblocks. Every software team has some set of practices for maintaining and improving the quality of their codebase; a few teams, like ØMQ, merge any old crap and then fix the crap (_but not in the backlog_, dear God! _Right away_, before it costs somebody else debugging time) while most teams require that patches meet some kind of quality standards in order to be merged.

By far the fastest I've leveled up my programming skills has been when better programmers looked at my code and told me what was bad about it and what could be improved. You're commenting on the story of someone who offered such commentary and had it rejected.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#353

This seems to be a verbose restatement of the Golden Rule - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule - that one is taught as a child.

One thing that I learned in a training at work is the platinum rule: Treat others the way _they_ want to be treated.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#354
post #297

> The way we do this, rather than ordering people to be kind or else, is try to help people learn to make their communication more kind. This is excellent; using love and persuasion to help someone improve is so much better than by force, compulsion, and fear. How many children rebel against restrictive and domineering parents? but a child who is loved and taught, but allowed to make choices and pursue independence u…

> You get more bees with honey than vinegar What does this mean? Don't bees make honey? Why would you try attracting bees with honey or vinegar in the first place?

It's usually said with "flies" rather than "bees".

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar is a well-known English proverb. The literal meaning being that you have flies in your home, you will have better success catching them with honey than with vinegar. The broader meaning is that in life, you will have more success if you go about things with sweetness than with acidity. (Though I've heard that--despite the proverb--vinegar actually does work better than honey at catching fruit flies.)

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope... https://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/compliance-gu... That's the basis of eg Kernel enforcement, the most-distributed project out there by far.

This describes, as far as I can tell, the de facto enforcement practices of ONE GPL copyright holder. I don't see where it places any binding limits on even the enforcement the SFLC would take, and of course it has no power to enforce any limits whatsoever on other GPL copyright holders. In the particular case of Kernel development, contributors are NOT required to assign their copyrights to any shared institution, a…

Bit sad you have no idea what you're talking about

https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.17/process/kernel-enforce...

... but keep digging anyway.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#356
Well said. I think Richard Stallman got this just right.

I know he is specifically talking about making everyone feel welcome in FSF development communities, and, I think what he says also applies to the business of writing software, starting companies, forming community groups, etc. Our industry has some problems of un-kind and sometime illegal behavior. By encouraging people to use kind communication and be inclusive, then all reasonable people win.

If someone in your environment is disrespectful of someone it seems lighter and more likely to succeed to point out that they are being un-kind rather than breaking a rule.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This describes, as far as I can tell, the de facto enforcement practices of ONE GPL copyright holder. I don't see where it places any binding limits on even the enforcement the SFLC would take, and of course it has no power to enforce any limits whatsoever on other GPL copyright holders. In the particular case of Kernel development, contributors are NOT required to assign their copyrights to any shared institution, a…

Bit sad you have no idea what you're talking about https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.17/process/kernel-enforce... ... but keep digging anyway.

Personal swipes will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong or ignorant another commenter is (or seems).

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting to HN, we'd appreciate it.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine as an ethics or description of good manners. The problem is that it is often turned into a politics. The logic of this kind of identitarian social critique, insofar as it becomes political, is decidedly illiberal. It is authoritarian. But all of this is nothing new! In fact it's about 30+ years old. It originates in the aftermath of the failed revolution of the 1960s--in other words, it appeared as a phe…

"The problem is that it is often turned into a politics." Everything is politics. Politics is part of everyone's life, and affects everyone's life. Some more than others, and some have the good fortune to not have to face that fact every day.

No, this attitude is harmful. First, because it dilutes the meaning of the word "politics", which describes something much more specific than "everything". And second, because as you point out in your last sentence, politics is something that can and should be kept separate from many aspects of life.

Inviting politics where it does not belong particularly harms vulnerable populations, because politics is about the use of power and force. We agree to leave our politics at home in many realms of life, and this allows us to band together regardless of our political differences to prevent greedy and powerful people from exploiting those realms.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#359
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't an attempt to be polite. They didn't use the long form of their name (which would be irritating but I can see that being an attempt to be polite), they used a rather infantilising diminutive. The effect was condescending and "Sal" was well within their rights to object. In the general case, telling someone that actually you are the person who has the last word on what they are called is bullying.

Sure, if someone says "call me this" and you don't, I agree, that's annoying. But it should be a polite request, not the start of a fight. And what is the long form then? The only female name I can think of that shortens to Sal is Sally. This whole story seems suspect.

"let's call her Sal" is an idiom for "her name isn't Sal, but let's use that as an example".

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#360
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the code was indeed garbage, and it cost a lot of time (super precious asset) and brain power (a precious asset) to evaluate and reject? Such a reaction would be understandable even if hurtful. No wonder people leaning towards the Asperger/autistic spectrum of brutal honesty would state that; such is their nature. What would you propose for addressing it? Ghosting? Silent blacklisting? English-style "there is…

> No wonder people leaning towards the Asperger/autistic spectrum of brutal honesty would state that; such is their nature. Actually, it is not "their nature". The nature of people on the spectrum is to have difficulty understanding social conventions. Having a system whereby social conventions are explicitly spelled out in detail is likely to help people on the spectrum adhere to them, because they no longer have to…

> I'm also highly skeptical of the idea anyone outside of a tiny minority would be unaware that "garbage" is an intentionally insulting term, especially given that it is a metaphor. Even "completely fails to meet standards" is vastly better and more descriptive (outside of the emotional content of "garbage").

For many on the spectrum (though certainly not all; it’s called a “spectrum” for a reason), this notion of “emotional content of ” is simply an alien concept! I know this is quite hard for a “neurotypical” person to truly accept (let alone empathize with), but it’s true: Which words are emotionally charged, and which aren’t, must be learned by rote memorization, and this can take a great deal of effort.

In this “neurotypical” world we live in, those of us on the spectrum must put a lot of effort into “acting neurotypical”, since “being yourself” just doesn’t fly when it means you can accidentally hurt others feelings (and we certainly don’t want that either).

Nobody is perfect though, and mistakes do happen. What’s unfortunate is that the kind of mistakes often made by people on the spectrum aren’t naturally tolerated or forgiven by most people, because the behavior is often seen as so far beyond the norm that “surely malice must be the only explanation”. Therefore, forgiveness and tolerance is often bypassed entirely.

Of course, I’m not trying to make excuses arguing that hurtful behavior should be tolerated; rather, I’m agreeing with the original point that we should help teach people how to behave well first, rather than dropping some kind of “ban hammer” on the first offense. Responding with the maximum penalty at the first offense is not only unfair, but creates a culture of fear and terror and anxiety, at least among those who aren’t the best at predicting what may or may not be seen as an offensive statement.

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