Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#351

Post by jzymbaluk » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

nebulous1 wrote: post #4

I mean, they get such bad press for the way they treat their workers it only seems fair to laud them for this. Good move. They have more to do though. I've went through a few articles on this but I didn't see any of them mention what Amazon's minimum actual pay was before this, just the federal minimum wage. Anybody know?

>Amazon's starting pay varies by location — $10 an hour at a warehouse in Austin, Texas, for example, and $13.50 an hour in Robbinsville, New Jersey. For 2017, the median Amazon employee earned just under $28,500, according to company filings.

From the CNBC article: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/02/amazon-raises-minimum-wage-t...

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#352

Post by jdmichal » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #335

IgorPartola wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, why is it bad that Amazon is lobbying for this? Would you say it was bad if, say, ACLU was lobbying for a $15 minimum wage? My guess is that from Amazon's point of view, they are winning political points by not just raising their own minimum wage to $15, they are also using their standing in the industry to increase quality of life for non-Amazon minimum wage workers. If they succeed, I am happy to grant them t…

By lobbying for the $15 minimum wage they are working to make sure that their competitors don’t retain any competitive advantage on wages. So now the brick and mortar shop that is barely in business because of competition with Amazon is going to get hit with a big bump in wage costs. They either will raise prices, or go out of business, both scenarios benefit Amazon.

That's a nice story, but it's just that. Alternatively, all the minimum wage workers will have more expendable income. Some of that may be spent at those brick-and-mortar shops, and will offset the additional costs.

Remember that the velocity of money makes it a non-zero-sum game.

EDIT: Ends up that Wikipedia covers this nicely:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_Sta...

"The interconnection of price levels, central bank policy, wage agreements, and total aggregate demand creates a situation in which conclusions drawn from macroeconomic analysis are highly influenced by the underlying assumptions of the interpreter."

Also has a nice side-bar quote from Henry Ford, who was partially known for higher wages, and which I think addresses the point I was trying to make (emphasis mine):

"The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers. One's own employees ought to be one's own best customers."

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#353

Post by nindalf » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:17 PM UTC

pkulak wrote: post #218

swebs wrote: post #17

>In addition, the company also pledges its public policy team will lobby for an increase to the federal minimum wage from $7.25 — it doesn’t identify a specific wage that it’s targeting, but instead says, “We believe $7.25 is too low. We would look to Congress to decide the parameters of a new, higher federal minimum wage.” I'm going to take a wild guess and assume it will be $15/hour. That way they'll get to look pr…

Wow, does the top comment always have to be cynical? This is exactly what everyone wanted Amazon to do. Maybe it's time to suck it up and give praise where praise is due? There are also benefits to paying more salary than your competitors (no hiring shortages, best employees, low turnover, etc), so I'm not going to blindly accept that it's now in Amazon's interest to drag the rest of the industry along with them. But…

> does the top comment always have to be cynical?

It's easy to mistake cynicism for wisdom.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#354

Post by ilikehurdles » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:17 PM UTC

pkulak wrote: post #286

L_Rahman wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the topic in question is how one of the most powerful companies on Earth chooses to use its power we should strive to always be this cynical. Skepticism of concentrated power is the ur-American political belief. We seem to have forgotten that lately.

If you're willing to shame a company for behavior you don't like, I think you should be prepared to give praise when they do exactly what you just asked for. When you constantly move the goal posts just so that you never have to abandon your righteous anger for even one day, what kind of incentive does that give companies to change their behavior?

I feel like you're reading a different tone from that comment than I am. The GP provides, to me, a realistic prediction of what Amazon will do next. Making predictions and citing facts isn't anger. I didn't read any anger into the comment, but I get plenty from you. Corporations don't have feelings. Amazon improved their behavior because of pressure from labor, not in order to get invited to your Thanksgiving dinner this year. The raise will likely demotivate unionization efforts, and that likely factored into the decision-making process.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#355

Post by jzymbaluk » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:18 PM UTC

genericone wrote: post #327

I suppose there has been some 'breakthrough' in their warehouse automation stack? I suppose in the rest of the USA a doubling of wages will definitely get them through an awkward longshoreman period, "well I'm being paid more unexpectedly, I suppose I can't complain about the robots". Once the robots are well established in operations, they can start to cut labor back some more.

Either that, or they want to defuse some of the political heat they've been getting by Bernie Sanders and co.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#356

Post by xtian » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:18 PM UTC

mikybee93 wrote: post #320

meko wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don't really deserve praise, practically ever because their motives are ultimately guided by profits. They only act in the interest of revenue. Sometimes those interests align with the employees, but let's not pretend this isn't self preservation on amazon's behalf.

That's silly. You could also say that humans don't really deserve praise since our motives are ultimately guided by our self interest. We only do things to make ourselves feel good, or make ourselves look better. I think that companies have many paths towards self preservation, and that choosing the paths that lead to a better world deserve praise regardless of motive.

> You could also say that humans don't really deserve praise since our motives are ultimately guided by our self interest

You could say that and you would be right. Why should anyone praise you if your underlying motivations are self-centered? You seem to be asserting that this is fundamental human nature, however, which is a belief which has been refuted plenty of times throughout history.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#357

Post by azernik » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:18 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #17

>In addition, the company also pledges its public policy team will lobby for an increase to the federal minimum wage from $7.25 — it doesn’t identify a specific wage that it’s targeting, but instead says, “We believe $7.25 is too low. We would look to Congress to decide the parameters of a new, higher federal minimum wage.” I'm going to take a wild guess and assume it will be $15/hour. That way they'll get to look pr…

Which is how the system should work. Raising wages puts you at a cost disadvantage against competitors, but if all employers take collective action they only have to pay more for wages (rather than lose market share). That's why the early American robber barons lobbied for government regulation of child labor at times - they wanted to be able to abandon it without giving opponents an advantage.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#358

Post by InitialLastName » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:18 PM UTC

MereInterest wrote: post #242

throwaway080383 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all relative. If minimum wage workers get their income doubled, but my income does not double, then they are doing better relative to me than they were before. And I do not expect my salary to double upon passing of such legislation.

That's a ridiculously cynical way to view it. First, utility does not scale linearly with income. Second, this allows for greater economic efficiency, because fewer people will be caught in bad situations with an insurmountable hurdle to get out. If you want to maintain your relative wealth, feudal times are great. The rest of us would rather increase absolute wealth.

> The rest of us would rather increase absolute wealth.

Some of us would be happy to just have enough money to do work we find productive for society, as opposed to what the market demands of us. Not everybody wants to ride the absolute wealth treadmill.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#359

Post by _khau » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #254

ionised wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says there are no viable alternatives?

None that I know of at least. If you can think of any, feel free to list them.

My point being that Capitalism has only been a thing for less 300 years, and what we have now isn't even capitalism. It's a warped perversion of it thanks to the inflated influence of ideologues like Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek, and the politicians that bought into their narrow-minded dogma hook, line and sinker.

The worst damage they and their ilk did was to convince the entire political spectrum from the centre-left to the far right that there is no alternative to free market fundamentalism.

I don't have a tried and tested alternative for you, but the idea that there are no alternatives is ludicrous to me.

We just need to be actually looking for these alternatives, which the corporate world has no interest in doing and the politicians in their pockets merely continue the theatrics of fixing a system that blatantly isn't working for anyone but the amassers of capital.

And before anyone loses their shit because I'm criticising the plutocracy we have allowed to be built in our names, nor I'm not a communist; no do I wish for a communist system.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#360

Post by ilikehurdles » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

IgorPartola wrote: post #277

wjnc wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in this respect: Amazon chooses to link the two discussions themselves. They could have easily made their communication less open to an easy attack by pledging $15 an hour while lobbying silently, or at least communicating that on another moment. They could have noble intentions with both moves. I'd even expect them to have noble intentions since $15 seems an unreasonable large increase from $7.25. Why link to t…

Wait, why is it bad that Amazon is lobbying for this? Would you say it was bad if, say, ACLU was lobbying for a $15 minimum wage? My guess is that from Amazon's point of view, they are winning political points by not just raising their own minimum wage to $15, they are also using their standing in the industry to increase quality of life for non-Amazon minimum wage workers. If they succeed, I am happy to grant them t…

Who claimed it was bad?