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Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

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351–360 of 507 posts

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#351
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like start searching with DuckDuckGo, use an alternate email service such as Fastmail, Protonmail, etc., and use Firefox. By the way, what's an alternate email service the HN users recommend?

I guess you missed this monster thread from earlier today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18054574

i read it. tldr: there isnt one.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#352
post #132

Chrome has been the new IE for years. "just use chrome" is an endless refrain from webdevs who don't want to test on Firefox. Not sure why it is so hard for people to see what is going on here. Google has a massive conflict of interest with their web development efforts. This is classic Microsoft-esque Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

> "just use chrome" is an endless refrain from webdevs who don't want to test on Firefox. Not at all. I used to start developing while netscrape was still a thing. Chrome is (and it was ) a bless for developers. I try firefox like once a year and see no reason to switch. THe actual case is also no reason to switch (for me) but ill watch it.

This seems to reinforce my statement? Chrome may be easier to develop on but that means sites break on Firefox or other browsers when Google differs from those other vendors. Google abuses this market position and developer preference.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one: https://twitter.com/__apf__/status/1044109217903198210

Yeah...and that thread says that the change is basically nothing, just a UI indicator: > Q: I don’t get, though — if you’re signed in to the browser but sync is off, then what does it mean to be signed in to the browser? What does it do besides sync? > A: Not much, you can think of it like a Gmail login state indicator. If that's fully the case, then there's nothing to see here and people are freaking out over nothin…

@__apf__ is being slightly disingenuous when she says "Not much ... like a Gmail login state indicator." Google logins are used across the web by a lot of sites. For instance here's what happens when you visit an Indian financial paper, the Economic Times, using Chrome 69: https://imgur.com/a/nFvxI0U (some personal info has been blurred out).

I almost never visit the Economic Times, and I certainly never log in, but now it gets a chance to log me in using my 'real' identity, and there's even a popup to nudge me in that direction. Any site that implements Google Logins can do this, as far as I can tell. I'm pretty sure most people who chose to enable browser sync in Chrome didn't opt for this.

I think the Chrome team really screwed up on this by not considering how Google IDs are used across the web. And for what? The rather marginal scenario of eliminating confusion in shared-browser situations?

Or they knew the full implications and did it anyway, which is even more disturbing.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at Google, but all statements/opinions are my own. My understanding is that there were two changes: 1. General responsibility for authenticating to Google services has been moved to Chrome, and being logged into Google is equivalent to being logged into Chrome. If sync is set up, logging back into Google also fixes your sync session, if it was broken (common — the warning in the toolbar is easy to ignore). 2.…

> It raises a question for both users and browser vendors: What does it mean to be logged into a web browser? And who - exactly - ever asked for the ability to "log into a web browser"? And what benefits are there for the user? There would be zero confusion about "Am I logged in to Google or logged in to Chrome?" without the unwanted and unexpected existence of a "logged in to a web browser" status. This is privacy d…

I've happily used Chrome's Sync features for years with separate profiles for personal and $job. I use it across multiple devices daily.

https://chrome.google.com/sync

I appreciate people have different concerns, but also just completely fail to grasp them in this case.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#355
post #132

Chrome has been the new IE for years. "just use chrome" is an endless refrain from webdevs who don't want to test on Firefox. Not sure why it is so hard for people to see what is going on here. Google has a massive conflict of interest with their web development efforts. This is classic Microsoft-esque Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

That's a bad example. In technical progress, Chrome is the complete opposite of IE (which seems to be replaced by Safari these days) and way better than the rest in pushing forward new features. Also 99% of the time Firefox and Edge work just fine. EDIT: Yes, IE was great in the beginning, but then it stagnated and earned the wide reputation of being terrible obsolete anchor that it is now known for. It's with this l…

"Being on the cutting edge" is exactly how Embrace, Extend, Extinguish [1] works. The "cutting edge" is the "extend" part. When Google uses their market position to make their desired functionality, service or standard the new hotness other vendors have to either adopt that standard or be left behind. When those standards are something Google themselves created that benefits them directly (and harms competitors) they are extinguishing those other vendors.

This is directly out of the Microsoft playbook and is why IE became as despised as it is.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#356
post #132

Chrome has been the new IE for years. "just use chrome" is an endless refrain from webdevs who don't want to test on Firefox. Not sure why it is so hard for people to see what is going on here. Google has a massive conflict of interest with their web development efforts. This is classic Microsoft-esque Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

Safari is the new IE, Chrome has been responsible for a huge number of positive changes in the browser landscape. I develop in Chrome because that's where the majority of our conversions come from. I (my QA team) also tests Safari, Firefox and other browsers where a significant number of conversions come from. I never heard "just use chrome" in any professional environment.

This reinforces my point about "just use Chrome". Google knows devs like Chrome and they make it easy because if more people use Chrome they can abuse their position to shape the rest of the internet to their preference. Why do you think they put energy into Chrome at all if not to get more eyeballs on Google services?

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#357
post #3

I don't understand why the Chrome team is picking this hill to die on- their team (managers and developers) are all over twitter and reddit trying to explain the privacy violations away as if the people upset about this are just not understanding what's going on. I really expect this change to push a lot of people away from Chrome, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if it started opening up more antitrust possibilit…

> I don’t understand why the Chrome team is picking this hill to die on Because they’re not “dying on a hill” at all, because nobody cares. Nobody outside Hacker News and Twitter infosec people only followed by other Twitter infosec people cares about this. > I really expect this change to push a lot of people away from chrome Care to bet on that? Because I would happily take the opposite side of that bet. I think th…

A lot more "lay users" will care when random sites they visit start picking up their Google identity and showing it in the web page, all because the user signed into the browser. This is what it looks like: https://imgur.com/a/nFvxI0U

Assuming this isn't fixed, the ick factor of being in-your-face followed across the web will be quite strong, I think.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use checkboxes?

When you have a checkbox for every possible customisation option, you end up with a commercial airliner cockpit - hundreds of flashing lights and switches, that you need a comprehensive manual and years of experience to properly operate.

Or you end up with `about:config`. Doesn't solve the impossible to comprehend everything problem, but it still gives people to option.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use checkboxes?

When you have a checkbox for every possible customisation option, you end up with a commercial airliner cockpit - hundreds of flashing lights and switches, that you need a comprehensive manual and years of experience to properly operate.

I'm convinced that most users would prefer having zero options or checkboxes.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but my parents _understand_ Facebook collects/sells their data. But they don't _care_ enough to stop using Facebook.

Most people incorrectly think along the lines of "they have all my data already, so there's nothing I can do." Most probably also believe that many of the things that are going on are illegal and that someone is watching out for their interests. If they really understood the consequences of the data collection on a deeper level, most people wouldn't agree to it.

I can confirm: there are a lot of things that friends, coworkers, and family all think are illegal and yet when I tell them to call law enforcement, they then ask "but who do I call?" followed by "I can't afford to hire a lawyer"

They know what's happening is wrong. They don't know how to stop it. But they do still need to browse the web.

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