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Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

nytimes.com

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Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#351

Post by skookumchuck »

michaelmrose wrote: post #315
skookumchuck wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The United States has been the top destination for international migrants since at least 1960, with one-fifth of the world's migrants living there as of 2017." That doesn't make much sense if the US is a hell-hole of capitalism grinding people into poverty (as immigrants usually have little). In 2016, 1.49 million immigrants came to the US. The median age is 44, so they're hardly all children. Meanwhile, an awful lo…

People aren't rational you can't prove anything about anything by supposing that people make sense. A lot of the planet is just terrible. Of the places that aren't terrible many wont let you just sneak in and make a living if you live a cash and carry lifestyle. At best you can prove that the US is viewed as better than their current abode by people that don't live here. This is the definition of damning with faint p…

If you actually believe that, it will be come a self-fulfilling prophecy for you. And that will be your choice, as the US is full of opportunity.

For example, you can get an MIT education for free on youtube, you can open a business on github for free, you can get funding for free from kickstarter, you can advertise for free on reddit, you can reach a worldwide market for free via the internet, you can write and sell a book on Amazon for free, and on and on. Nobody needs to know your age, gender, ethnicity, religion, location, disability, marital status, etc.

There's never been such opportunity, right here anywhere in America.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#353

Post by ericd »

ionised wrote: post #331
ericd wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. In nature, the strongest lion has all the mates, while the second strongest has none.

Humans aren't lions, and our society doesn't work the same way, even in more primitive times. I'm assuming you were referring to survival of the fittest, which is commonly misunderstood to be survival of the strongest. What survival of the fittest actually means is survival of those most adaptive to change, which is not at all what you are describing.

Obviously humans aren't lions. I was just saying that the idea that nature tends toward equillibrium between individuals doesn't stand up to even the most cursory look at real nature.

And if you think he meant human nature, I would say that generally, by nature, humans are kind and share with those they see as their people, but the complete opposite with anyone outside that group. Since the market is made up of people only in the abstract to most people, I would say that that nature doesn't tend toward equillibrium between individuals either.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#354

Post by bulditand »

throwaway8879 wrote: post #242
peterwwillis wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We develop drugs and medical practices to artificially extend our lives. We build gigantic civilizations and trade goods around the globe. We take the coffee beans from a farmer in a poor nation undergoing drought, pay that farmer between $0.07-$0.50 per kilo of coffee, and then sell that kilo in a coffee shop (after roasting and brewing) for about $70. We aren't natural. We don't need natural evolutionary states. We…

None of that is my responsibility. I'm not obligated to help anyone but myself. Nobody asked me for consent before flinging me into existence, and now I have to follow all these rules that people make up? I don't need "unnatural, human-oriented, ethical states". I'm perfectly happy with a state where I can acquire as many resources as possible, even if that incurs a significant cost to others.

I've read your posts in this thread and I realize you won't get it even a hundred people explain it to you.

I only hope you won't meet some day a man who wants to "acquire as many resources as possible, even if that incurs a significant cost to others" on a dark alley.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#355

Post by captain_mars »

mick87 wrote: post #282
sheepmullet wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The market did solve the problem and then we blew it by undermining the family unit so we have people dependent on the state with no significant family support. Good point. In my birth country you must support your elderly parents by law. Even without the law 99% of families would. The idea that the government should do it seems crazy. The government only needs to step in where the elderly have no family, are unabl…

From my point of view, that you have to support your elderly sounds crazy. Here most elderly either gets support in their own home by professionals (by the local government) or at a home with professional care (run by the local government). I'd rather spend time with my family on our own terms and not because I have to support them.

> I'd rather spend time with my family on our own terms and not because I have to support them.

Speaking as an Asian, I grew up in a culture where parents, and elders in general, are super-important. Things are changing now, but many of us are still very close to our parents.

In old-school thought, taking care of one's parents is seen not as an obligation, but as an opportunity to serve them, and to repay them (in some small measure) for the love and care we have received from them in our childhood.

When my grandfather passed away suddenly and unexpectedly in his 60s, my father was distraught that he did not get an opportunity to serve him.

My point is, many of us view the situation differently - not as a burden, but as an opportunity.

However, it is undeniable that sometimes it can be a burden, and for those situations, it would have been excellent to have the government take care of the elderly, as it is done in your country.

Edit: A typo.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#356

Post by michaelt »

chrisbennet wrote: post #134
fzeroracer wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you've mentioned the real cost of food and farming in the US is effectively heavily subsidized by the fact that many of said farms employ illegal immigrants for labor, both because they refuse to pay minimum wage and because Americans as a whole seem to refuse to do said jobs. Legal immigration has a comparatively small effect due to the fact that they're part of the skilled labor force and generally fill gaps in…

If we raised farm labor wages by 40% it would cost the consumer less than $25 a year. ”For a typical household, a 40 percent increase in farm labor costs translates into a four percent increase in retail prices (0.30 farm share of retail prices x 0.33 farm labor share of farm revenue = 10 percent, farm labor costs rise 40 percent, and 0.4 x 10 = 3.6 percent). If farm wages rose 40 percent, and the increase were passe…

Doesn't the average consumer spends a lot more than $530 a year on farmed goods?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#357

Post by sheepmullet »

coldtea wrote: post #181
skookumchuck wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know people who profess to be victims, too. I'll tick off the choices they made that got them where they are. Of course, they get angry with me. Nobody wants to hear the truth. Where I am, the good and the bad, is nearly entirely the sum of my choices. For example, if you floss or not eventually has a large effect on your health. Ditto for the amount you choose to drink, smoke, and exercise. Where you choose to liv…

> I know people who profess to be victims, too. I'll tick off the choices they made that got them where they are. Of course, they get angry with me. Nobody wants to hear the truth. Who told you poor people are capable of as good choices as richer people? When you live life in easy mode is easy to make the right choices. It's also easy to see some people who managed to play in hard mode and win, and extrapolate to eve…

> nor it makes it any more statistically possible for the masses to win the hard mode gameplay they were dealt.

You don’t have to go back many generations to see that compared to today almost everyone played on hard mode.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#358

Post by pjc50 »

candiodari wrote: post #154
neilwilson wrote: post #148

If there are only 19 bones for every 20 dogs, then it doesn't matter how good a bone hunter they all are there will always be one dog disappointed and the other 19 will be grateful for the bone no matter how thin and weedy it is. Systemically the 'interest rate targeting' approach starts to tighten up policy when unemployment gets below 5% - which they consider 'full employment' even though 1 in 20 haven't got jobs.…

And, of course you need a way to prevent employers from using various alternatives available to them. * You need very high import taxes, so goods have to be produced with local labour * If truly automation were to become pervasive, that needs taxing * You probably need restrictions to prevent money from crossing borders too easily * You can't have open borders (or) * You have to strongly respond to illegals working (…

> leftists and communists were strongly against immigration

This is revisionism and ignores the whole "internationalism" vs "socialism in one country" debate. It also fails to recognise the history of nativist (far-)right anti-immigration parties and lefty anti-borders activists.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#359

Post by yetihehe »

Firadeoclus wrote: post #325
throwaway8879 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only "civilization" I care about is me. Is it really that difficult for you to understand and accept that there are people like me out there who only care about themselves and the resources they can acquire for themselves? The dog can die. It isn't my problem.

Even if all you care about is yourself your survival depends on others. Both their helping you acquire the things you need and their not actively wanting to kill you. Societal collapse is your problem.

Now try to convince other people that they should do what you say. Not gonna happen, there will always be people that are selfish. That's one of the reasons why communism failed, there were too many people which didn't care about others or were just plain parasitic. I heard one phrase which sums communism up perfectly "Whether you stand or lie, 2 thousands is due" which means you can go to work, do almost nothing and still earn because employment is guaranteed. Not everyone is caring like you or me. There are many assholes, I'm sure you've seen some in your life.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#360

Post by tomhoward »

radoslawc wrote: post #352

Oh wow, my post was just removed. One can have opinion here as long as it resonates with HN's echo chamber.

What do you mean "removed"? Are you talking about this comment that was downvoted?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17966334

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