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Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

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Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#351

Post by insaneirish »

dpkonofa wrote: post #200
dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

This is such a big part of it and it's amazing that they get away with it. Case in point: Blue Apron. Blue Apron positioned itself as one of the more "recycle-friendly" food delivery services to try and fight the stigma against every delivery having bags upon bags of individually wrapped goods by providing recycling services. As a former Blue Apron customer, I loved that I could separate stuff out (hard plastic, soft…

> There is a solution here.

Rant: the solution is to learn how to read a recipe and cook without a paint by numbers erector set that has an unreasonable packaging:food ratio.

I’m fine with these services as a ‘gateway drug’ to independently cooking for yourself, but they’re insane as a long term thing.

(Not to mention that I have no idea how they stay viable in the long term, given their customer acquisition costs. If anyone makes it work in the long term it will be Amazon/Whole Foods.)

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#352

Post by dougmwne »

ak217 wrote: post #333
chiefalchemist wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"...the bill always comes due..." Yes. But it's __always__ the consumer that pays that bill. Increase in the cost of anything simply gets added to the price. Yes. You might get manufactures to change. But the consumer is still the one who pays.

The whole point of the concept of environmental externalities and the tragedy of the commons is that the bill comes due for all of us, or our future generations, because a select few consumers got to exploit the environment, courtesy of the manufacturers. The point of the discussion is that this is fundamentally unfair, and consumers should pay that bill. Furthermore, the cost of the bill is often exaggerated. Yes, r…

Tragedy of the commons is the best argument I've ever heard for why we need government and the rule of law.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#353

Post by pharrington »

smallnamespace wrote: post #334
smolder wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you can't easily put the blame on individuals doesn't mean they're not responsible. Our "system" is great at "blame laundering" or obfuscating ethical implications of decisions through diffusion of responsibility and removal of context at different boundaries. But the system itself is not a thing you can blame, as it's orchestrated by people who wanted it to work that way. Leaders who don't act to change…

> the system itself is not a thing you can blame, as it's orchestrated by people who wanted it to work that way Strongly disagree with that assessment; viewing systems as solely the product of individual decisions is like viewing your brain solely as the product of the movement of individual atoms. You lose all predictive capability. If you do something immoral, is there some group of cells or atoms that I can direct…

Actually measuring, or even hypothesizing about, the predictive capability of different models of varying levels of abstraction is something that happens disturbingly rarely in fields that aren't the hard sciences. I suspect an important (but not primary) reason for this is that most people simply don't have an opportunity to be exposed to the type of maths and analysis required for systems theory, and thus are extremely unlikely to surmise that something like systems theory is a distinct thing that can even exist.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#354

Post by minitech »

WalterBright wrote: post #325
bunderbunder wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not be feasible for them. Shippers place pretty strict limits on how much dry ice can go onto one of their planes, on account of not wanting to suffocate the air crew mid flight.

Fortunately, people have built-in biological CO2 detectors. If it is just flight crew (no passengers), they all have oxygen masks they can use if the CO2 suffuses the cabin.

> Fortunately, people have built-in biological CO2 detectors.

They’re not that sensitive, though, and the symptoms are ambiguous.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#355

Post by jonknee »

macintux wrote: post #259
dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

I've seen this logic applied to trash in the wilderness, and it's maddening. "Don't blame the consumer for leaving trash everywhere, blame the manufacturers for creating non-biodegradable trash." Setting aside that even biodegradable trash is harmful to animals, it's ridiculous to absolve people of basic hygiene requirements. If you can haul it in, you can haul it out.

There a orders of magnitude less producers of one time use plastic items than there are consumers of them though, so it's vastly easier to regulate on the production end than the consumption end.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#356

Post by jmts »

I was thinking about this issue recently. Surely part of this is a UI issue. How do I know what is recyclable and what isn't? Do I need to prepare it in some way before I put it in the bin?

Governments have control over regulating a great number of things. Why not regulate packaging by requiring easy to identify recycling instructions? Standardise the bin colours across a large area - ideally an entire country - to make sure it is easy to provide 1-to-1 mappings between graphics and target bins, then require manufacturers provide clear labeling of how to dispose of the packaging. Surely the manufacturer knows without a doubt what it is making things out of. They should also know therefore how to recycle it. If some materials are more recyclable than others, regulate in favour of the more recyclable materials. Single material packaging should be favoured over multi-material packaging. Should it be rinsed before being added to a yellow bin? Have standardised graphics to show those two things.

If governments provides some incentive/encouragement/regulation for businesses to produce packaging that is not only recyclable, but also easily sorted by consumers, surely that will solve a lot of contamination issues and promote better practices by consumers.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#357

Post by dpkonofa »

1stcity3rdcoast wrote: post #316
bunderbunder wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be surprised if "Pack the box back up and burn a bunch more jet fuel sending it back to New York" turns out to be even worse than just sending it all to the landfill. Given that they require air mailing boxes full of (mostly, by weight) frozen liquids all over the place on a weekly basis, I'm not convinced that these meal kit services can ever be made sustainable. Compared to that cost, worrying about recy…

We subscribed to Terra’s Kitchen after trying a few services including Blue Apron and Freshly. Terra’s Kitchen, in addition to using non-disposable, durable vessels and cold packs that you return, also pre-chops and pre-preps many of the ingredients so meal prep and cleanup is truly 20-30 mins, which is half the time (or less) than Blue Apron. Here are the vessels they use: https://www.terraskitchen.com/how-it-works/…

I wonder if the added cost is worth it as far as freshness and quality are concerned. I know I'm not the typical case, but I never got a bad shipment from Blue Apron when I was using it. I really wish I could continue to use it but I just can't justify the amount of waste that piles up over just going to the store myself. I spend almost as much time unpacking and prepping everything for recycling.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#359

Post by toomanybeersies »

astrodust wrote: post #187
jcoffland wrote: post #99

It's incredible that corporations are allowed to pump out massive quantities of single use plastic and then we blame the consumer for not recycling it. The idea that the solution is to change the habits of billions of people rather than enforce some rules on a few thousand companies is just crazy.

The entire packaging industry is ridiculous. For example: Why do garbage bags come in boxes or bags when they could be stored inside a garbage bag that's folded up properly to contain them?

Whenever I by garbage bags, they come in a roll. The only packaging they have is a sticker for the barcode and sometimes a couple of rubber bands to keep them nicely rolled up.
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