Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers • Hacker News Board

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#351

Post by dd36 » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #316

lurquer wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's correct. Indians litter. It's a cultural thing, I guess. Filthiest place on earth. (Don't downvoted me unless you have been to India.) It's sad that the solution is to ban plastic bags and the like... I'm not against the solution. But, the problem is Indians who think nothing of tossing trash out into the street and would be genuinely confused if you suggested they clean up after themselves.

I’m not sure I buy the “it’s cultural” argument. I’ve been to India and to plenty of other places, and there is a littering problem everywhere. It seems to be worse wherever there are lots of people and mediocre rule of law. I don’t think any one culture instinctively litters more than any other.

I hypothesize it's a poverty thing. When you're poor, why would you care about plastic waste. You're worried about your next meal.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#352

Post by dd36 » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

thecrazyone wrote: post #324

lurquer wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's correct. Indians litter. It's a cultural thing, I guess. Filthiest place on earth. (Don't downvoted me unless you have been to India.) It's sad that the solution is to ban plastic bags and the like... I'm not against the solution. But, the problem is Indians who think nothing of tossing trash out into the street and would be genuinely confused if you suggested they clean up after themselves.

I'm from India. ## Problem 1: The problem is not culture, but of poor govt. I as a responsible person want to throw this wrapper, there is no dustbin you'll find for kilometers on end sometimes. Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? ## Problem 2: You would've noticed, most Indian homes are pretty clean (within reason and corresponding to income level)…

3) Tax plastic and use those taxes to pay for bins and removal. This has the dual effect of incentivizing the use of less plastic and paying for clean up.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#353

Post by lurquer » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

thecrazyone wrote: post #324

lurquer wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's correct. Indians litter. It's a cultural thing, I guess. Filthiest place on earth. (Don't downvoted me unless you have been to India.) It's sad that the solution is to ban plastic bags and the like... I'm not against the solution. But, the problem is Indians who think nothing of tossing trash out into the street and would be genuinely confused if you suggested they clean up after themselves.

I'm from India. ## Problem 1: The problem is not culture, but of poor govt. I as a responsible person want to throw this wrapper, there is no dustbin you'll find for kilometers on end sometimes. Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? ## Problem 2: You would've noticed, most Indian homes are pretty clean (within reason and corresponding to income level)…

>Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time?

Yes. I don't know you and my comment isn't directed to you. But this is what I meant by 'confused' in my post... It seems many from that culture genuinely think it is absurd to clean up after oneself. The distinction between public and private property has no bearing on how a westerner feels about littering. Indeed, a westerner would be LESS inclined to litter on public property than on his own.

In the West, when one drops a piece of paper or bottle, the thought is (or should be) that you are making life harder for someone else who will eventually have to pick it up.

It's the reason you can rely on Westerners, generally, to clean their own tables and toss out their own trash at fast food restaurants. (Or at least briefly feel guilty about it if they don't). It's the reason you can rely on Westerners to return their grocery carts to the collection points. It's empathy... we don't want to make life harder for the poor worker. I do not believe this feeling of empathy is pervasive in Indian cultures... maybe just a left-over from the caste system...

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#354

Post by mikec3010 » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 6:10 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #333

mikec3010 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shit loads of trash in the ocean are from impoverished developing nations who use their rivers as garbage dumps. Not the ignorant yuppie who let's his Pepsi bottle blow into the marina. Don't let a few assholes be a surrogate for justifiable outrage that comes from a completely different source on an incomprehensibly massive scale.

> Don't let a few assholes be a surrogate for justifiable outrage that comes from a completely different source on an incomprehensibly massive scale. Oh I'm well acquainted with the problems in developing countries and they are disproportionately responsible for the state of the oceans. However, I'd say that they are all just degrees of the same problem. I've picked up lots of trash in developing countries, but also…

I agree with you completely. Well said.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#355

Post by dragontamer » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

thecrazyone wrote: post #324

lurquer wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's correct. Indians litter. It's a cultural thing, I guess. Filthiest place on earth. (Don't downvoted me unless you have been to India.) It's sad that the solution is to ban plastic bags and the like... I'm not against the solution. But, the problem is Indians who think nothing of tossing trash out into the street and would be genuinely confused if you suggested they clean up after themselves.

I'm from India. ## Problem 1: The problem is not culture, but of poor govt. I as a responsible person want to throw this wrapper, there is no dustbin you'll find for kilometers on end sometimes. Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? ## Problem 2: You would've noticed, most Indian homes are pretty clean (within reason and corresponding to income level)…

> Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time?

FYI: in many urban areas in the USA, the expectation is that you carry a "poop bag" and pickup all the poop your dog makes whenever you walk your dog.

This isn't true across the entire USA. Its definitely a neighborhood-by-neighborhood basis. But still, these are the things a lot of liberal cities expect their citizens to do (and things that citizens actually do, because there are enough people who care)

In fact, there are poop-bag dispensers found at parks. There is literally an industry which makes dog-poop bags: http://www.poopbags.us

Here's a picture of what they normally look like: https://imgur.com/13cAJTg

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#356

Post by RandomCSGeek » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:25 AM UTC

Boombuster wrote: post #99

Seems like a big challenge. When I travelled to Mumbai i remember so many plastic bottles around the shoreline

Mumbai is one of those places where the sea dumps all it's waste. Of course, a lot of it must have been generated by Mumbai itself, but some must also be coming from elsewhere.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#357

Post by vinay427 » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 6:18 AM UTC

ryanianian wrote: post #251

gianpaj wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Ukraine, there is a big French supermarket chain called Ашан (auchan.ua), in which people can buy liquid cleaning products by the volume. For example, if you need a litre for dishwashing cleaning soap, you can go and pull a lever and fill an appropriate size plastic bottle. It's their own brand and it's very cheap. I'm not 100% sure if you can bring and use any plastic bottle, or you have first get it from them. T…

That's excellent. It's surprising even high-end specialty stores in the US (e.g. Whole Foods) don't do more of this.

The Whole Foods in my area has various bulk foods (through Sprouts has FAR more) and has bulk body products (soaps, lotions, shampoos, etc.).

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#358

Post by srean » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 6:45 AM UTC

thecrazyone wrote: post #324

lurquer wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's correct. Indians litter. It's a cultural thing, I guess. Filthiest place on earth. (Don't downvoted me unless you have been to India.) It's sad that the solution is to ban plastic bags and the like... I'm not against the solution. But, the problem is Indians who think nothing of tossing trash out into the street and would be genuinely confused if you suggested they clean up after themselves.

I'm from India. ## Problem 1: The problem is not culture, but of poor govt. I as a responsible person want to throw this wrapper, there is no dustbin you'll find for kilometers on end sometimes. Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? ## Problem 2: You would've noticed, most Indian homes are pretty clean (within reason and corresponding to income level)…

> Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home

That's what I do.

BTW its not that the govt does not put bins, they keep getting stolen. One could argue that the govt could guard them better. I doubt that it would be cost effective.

Someone who is stealing garbage bins probably has a pretty desperate incentive, or these thefts are a part of systemic corruption. Its actually both. Making incentives weaker would go a long way towards a longer term solution.

Its likely that it suits the government fine that the bins get stolen, the contract was given to the private company owned by minister's brother in law. Now they are both happy that they have more bins to order. BTW that brother in law is the one who arranged for those to get stolen in the first place.

Please elaborate why privatization will fix the problem. Not disbelieving, want to understand the solution you propose.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#359

Post by srean » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 6:48 AM UTC

dd36 wrote: post #352

thecrazyone wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from India. ## Problem 1: The problem is not culture, but of poor govt. I as a responsible person want to throw this wrapper, there is no dustbin you'll find for kilometers on end sometimes. Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? ## Problem 2: You would've noticed, most Indian homes are pretty clean (within reason and corresponding to income level)…

3) Tax plastic and use those taxes to pay for bins and removal. This has the dual effect of incentivizing the use of less plastic and paying for clean up.

I really wish taxation was more p2p. In India this process will stop at tax collection. The collected tax will not end up where it was meant to.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#360

Post by srean » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 6:52 AM UTC

lurquer wrote: post #353

thecrazyone wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from India. ## Problem 1: The problem is not culture, but of poor govt. I as a responsible person want to throw this wrapper, there is no dustbin you'll find for kilometers on end sometimes. Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? ## Problem 2: You would've noticed, most Indian homes are pretty clean (within reason and corresponding to income level)…

>Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? Yes. I don't know you and my comment isn't directed to you. But this is what I meant by 'confused' in my post... It seems many from that culture genuinely think it is absurd to clean up after oneself. The distinction between public and private property has no bearing on how a westerner feels about littering. Inde…

I am Indian and this comment is painful but I agree with a lot of it. Some have actually challenged me "why not litter, I pay taxes for that".

Indian society is very hierarchical and shitting on the rung below you is very ingrained in us. What makes matters worse is that people are so unaccustomed to considerate treatment from the rung above that this is almost an alien concept to them. Hence it does not occur to them as often as it should to be considerate to others.

Just the other day I witnessed an argument. A lady passerby was very annoyed. The construction worker who was doing some welding work on an overhanging grill did not stop to let the lady pass without sparks landing on her. The construction worker's reaction was essentially 'WTF are you talking about'. The fact is that the construction worker probably would have never have experienced a situation where someone stopped work momentarily for his convenience. Its an alien notion. On the other side no one in the lady's social circle would have been a construction worker even if we include multiple generations.