Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially • Hacker News Board

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#351

Post by grigjd3 » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC

hapnin wrote: post #228

cheschire wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military's purpose in modern times is not to bring peace, it is to preserve peace. I find it an important distinction, as "bringing" peace sounds like the military's purpose is to force outsiders who may be viewed as unpeaceful to adopt new culture which is viewed as more peaceful. To "preserve" peace implies, at least to me, that the military is focused on the peace of the home population, and may take action el…

The idea of the military preserving peace is like thinking a group of horny boys will preserve virginity. The US is the most aggressive military on Earth. There's no peace in its presence.

Not gonna say the US military isn't aggressive, but I think it is at the very least debatable that China and Russia are less aggressive.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#352

Post by onli » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #316

onli wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolute ridiculous false dilemma. It is not that if the US hadn't chosen to invade Vietnam and to kill everything that moves someone else would have, the US just opted to do that on their own. And it was not like they were there to free the people (from whom anyway, they were not enslaved). There was no vacuum to fill, the same goes for Iraq, Afghanistan, were the US created the vacuum that was afterwards filled by…

"And that's the core of the issue, and that is why these political comments are on point... By cooperating with the imperial US military Google is directly supporting one of the most evil forces in the world" Do you mean the US military is one of the most evil forces in the world or the US itself as a geopolitical actor?

I mainly meant the military there, however it is debatable how much you can separate the two. But that discussion would be imho too OT for here.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#353

Post by josefresco » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 1:38 PM UTC

snarf21 wrote: post #337

rifung wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

One issue is that this a lot different than an aircraft carrier cannon. Those are super expensive and limited in where and how they can be used. Also, the bigger the fear is that we don't know where this will stop. Great, so drones are being used in war for strategic strikes. Given the current administration, how long before that might be used to track down people near the border? How long after that to track down pe…

"Maybe someone else will do it, but we need to fight them and not allow it, not just take our money and put our head in the sand"

China & Russia are doing it. You can't fight them without ... fighting them.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#354

Post by Lennie » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 1:40 PM UTC

Cookingboy wrote: post #87

strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

I kind of agree actually. Humanity has always been at conflict with each other and will be for the foreseeable future. But for the first time in history we have the tools to conduct intense warfare yet limit collateral damages and minimize cost in both human and material resources. The engineers who worked on precision strike weapons/smart bombs should be applauded instead of ostracized, in the past we'd just carpet…

> Humanity has always been at conflict with each other and will be for the foreseeable future.

well, it's been in decline for a while now:

https://ourworldindata.org/slides/war-and-violence/

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#355

Post by thewarrior » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 1:42 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #76

calibas wrote: post #3

Is my moral compass off, or does war profiteering completely violate the whole "don't be evil" thing?

When you are dying perhaps your definitions change. I hold the controversial (and often dismissed) opinion that Google is dying. I assert they are dying in part because they built a company around search advertising before they knew how to build a company, their initial success gave them the confidence and agency to create structural impediments to their ability to do anything but search advertising. And the search a…

Define dying ?

I don't see how Google can go out of business in the next 10 years given their cash reserves. Eg: If they lost 2 billion dollars every year they could still keep doing that for decades.

I'm pretty confident that they'll still be around in some form 20 years from now as well.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#356

Post by grigjd3 » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 1:44 PM UTC

Lennie wrote: post #320

fsloth wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the US military is _not_ being used in this way." I agree to a point. US is "hooked" to war as it feeds the profits and the subsidies of the military industrial complex. Especially in the eastern mediterranean area and middle east US escapades have been hugely destabilizing. However, given the current world stage in total with such jolly players with extraterritorial ambitions as Russia and China, I would much prefe…

Let's first make the other NATO members more powerful before we keep increasing the US firepower.

This misses how we established a peaceful western Europe. The US provides military protection to cover Europe so that countries like Germany don't need a big military. This keeps France and Germany from contemplating shooting at each other because they don't see a threat there anymore.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#357

Post by grigjd3 » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

snarf21 wrote: post #337

rifung wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

One issue is that this a lot different than an aircraft carrier cannon. Those are super expensive and limited in where and how they can be used. Also, the bigger the fear is that we don't know where this will stop. Great, so drones are being used in war for strategic strikes. Given the current administration, how long before that might be used to track down people near the border? How long after that to track down pe…

If we're headed to an Orwellian future, drones have nothing to do with it. The fault isn't in a weapon system but is in us.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#358

Post by josefresco » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

annabellish wrote: post #254

fsloth wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans" I'm sorry, but I think in our current world historical evidence is stacked against you. Humans are a political species. The ultimate form of political power within a specified region is to have the most capability for the violence within the region. Hence, if a nation state would secede all capability for violence it would effectively yiel…

This is the theory, yes, and to a point it's even true, but the US military is _not_ being used in this way. There is no challenger for "ultimate political power" within the US region. Their spending and investment is well beyond what is necessary to keep up with the "competition", of which there is effectively none. It is merely the continual expansion and growth of an already vastly overqualified force which hasn't…

There is no challenger for "ultimate political power" within the US region

How quaint - "regions" don't exist with modern weapons. To say the US doesn't have to worry in it's "region" is laughably naive.

Their spending and investment is well beyond what is necessary to keep up with the "competition"

Also quaint. China is able to leapfrog decades and trillions of dollars of US spending on defense due to modern technology advancements. One only needs to look at terrorism and militants fighting in the Middle East to realize that spending does not equal capability or effectiveness. In war games, China's sheer numbers overwhelm a technologically superior foe at a fraction of the cost.

hasn't actually been needed to enforce "ultimate political power within its region" in decades,

It is literally being used every second of every day to project power and maintain stability around the globe (not to mention daily active engagements over Syria/Iraq/Afganistan etc.). Just because we haven't had a "traditional" war in (years) doesn't' mean this power isn't a vital part of defense.

*Making this violence engine more powerful is evil, even if one accepts that a military force is 100% necessary.

Who fill this power vacuum if the US steps down? Will the world hold hand and sing peace songs if the US reduces military spending and activity?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#359

Post by fauigerzigerk » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 1:49 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #296

koolba wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need a military in order to prevent other people from bombing your country. You absolutely do not need to bomb other people, and if fact if your goal is to not get bombed, not bombing other people might be your best option for a bunch of reasons. And sometimes the best way to save lives of your people is to bomb other people. That’s very naive. Not all antagonists are rational state actors. Terrorist orgs like…

ISIS is a direct consequence of US interventions. The Post-WWII history of the middle east mostly follows the pattern “US declares $X evil. In its fight against $X, US supports $lesserEvil with money and weapons. $Y years later $lesserEvil has used funding and weapons to grow and become $greaterEvil. US declares $W as $lesserEvil and funds them. Repeat.“ Short term that might seem smart, but do it long enough and you…

The pattern you're describing is unfortunately a pretty accurate reflection of the post WWII history of the Middle East. However, consider how these mistakes happened.

First there were the Nazis. They invaded half of Europe while the US remained neutral until it was attacked by Japan in 1941. After the US and its allies won the war, the overwhelming majority of Germans celebrated their liberation and went on to become a prosperous ally of the US. Great success.

Then there was the cold war, which was essentially an attempt to prevent the Soviets from achieving their avowed goal of world domination. Again, the US and its allies won that conflict and the overwhelming majority of Eastern Europeans are greatful for it. (Let's not get into a debate about the merits of Socialism here. Soviet style totalitarianism and Stalinism isn't what most on the left want nowadays. At least my Marxist friends don't)

So there were two very important historical episodes during which a refusal of the US to do anything more than defend the homeland would have been catastrophic. Unfortunately, this has lead to a doctrine of uncritical and imprudent interventionism and to a refusal to learn from the many mistakes that were made during the cold war, most importantly in the Middle East (but also in Latin America).

My point is, even though your criticism of failed interventionist policies is correct, it means little without also discussing the crucially important successes of global US military power.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#360

Post by maushu » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 1:51 PM UTC

pavelludiq wrote: post #264

flatline wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or accept the reality that we live in a world that feels the need to kill people. I think it would be swell to not need a military but the reality is that we do. If you have qualms about working for Google as a defense contractor, consider the implications of living in the US (or in all likelihood wherever you happen to reside). Can you justify paying your taxes? Can you justify voting for one of a handful of candida…

You need a military in order to prevent other people from bombing your country. You absolutely do not need to bomb other people, and if fact if your goal is to not get bombed, not bombing other people might be your best option for a bunch of reasons[1]. If your goal is to systematically rob your population of wealth by dumping insane amounts of money into an otherwise mostly useless industry(you don't really need 12…

> you don't really need 12 carriers to defend your country for example, they are mostly useless for defense

There is also the deterrence theory.