Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#351

Post by Marysville » Thu, May 10, 2018, 12:07 AM UTC

ovao wrote: post #29

gonmf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no legal right to Facebook, but if Facebook wants to do business here, it has to abide by our rules. And our rules are very simple, you cannot deny service because the user doesn't allow tracking if tracking is not necessary for your service to work. And it isn't in this case, it's only necessary to deliver higher paying ads. Since they are being selective on the users they accept based on being tracked, the…

It's disconcerting to me that under the GDPR, online businesses appear to be losing the ability to deny services to a user who knowingly, and with clear consent, chooses to take personal responsibility over the data they provide to said businesses. Regardless of whether this is for the "greater good", this is deeply unsettling territory.

It's like seat belts. You cannot sell a car without seat belt regardless of customer's choice. The customer's choice come later whether or not he wants to put on the seat belt.

Car = Service

Seat belt = Tracking protection

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#352

Post by thisacctforreal » Thu, May 10, 2018, 12:24 AM UTC

bonsai80 wrote: post #111

willsinclair wrote: post #5

Interesting. It seems like after the senate hearings, Facebook is trying to communicate to its users that sending them your data is a necessary part of using their services.

Yup. Perhaps this will eventually be a screen for the user to choose: Button 1: Agree and proceed. Button 2: Set up credit card billing. Button 3: Close account.

The Average Revenue per User can be found in their earnings report (linked above by ihumanable): https://s21.q4cdn.com/399680738/files/doc_financials/2018/Q1...

For US & Canada this was $86.65 in the last 4 quarters.

For Europe this was $34.95.

Keep in mind they likely don't target ads using just one person's data: accuracy can be improved by looking at the data of similar people, and looking at the data of friends and family. It isn't as simple as offering a $10/month plan to keep your privacy, because they want everyone's data.

"Your data is worthless, everyone's data is priceless."

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#353

Post by needToSay » Thu, May 10, 2018, 12:35 AM UTC

newscracker wrote: post #218

Things like this make me very, very angry! So many missteps over the years. So many things bungled. So many dark patterns to fool users. Yet, where is the mass exodus of employees from Facebook? If you're still working in any company that Facebook owns in the technology or privacy or legal front, don't you realize what harm you're contributing to? And you're still ok with that? Don't you have a choice? I'm appalled t…

Facebook is evil and sin. Fuck them.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#354

Post by ovao » Thu, May 10, 2018, 3:08 AM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #313

ovao wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give me an example of someone who isn’t in a position to — in simple terms — take their business elsewhere when it comes to dealing with some sort of online company with whom they’re voluntarily sharing data?

Lack of alternatives, for one. Second would be someone for whom the rest of their social network is on Facebook, and they use Facebook as a primary communications source. I know nobody would be willing to sign up for another network or use another messenger just because I don't want to use FB messenger. I cannot get behind the idea that ostracizing yourself from there rest of your friends and family is an acceptable…

I believe users should have control of their data. I don’t have any issue with the GDPR in that respect, and that’s not what I’ve taken issue with. When you say “no thanks”, that’s a user exercising control over their data, and is an action which necessarily involves no governmental body.

I take issue with this specific stipulation that — even with clear and upfront user consent — a business simply cannot operate in ways that are A) not opposed to the safety or health of their users and B) potentially necessary to succeed in the markets in which they participate.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#355

Post by jobigoud » Thu, May 10, 2018, 4:21 AM UTC

s_dev wrote: post #175

kungtotte wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With over 500 million people in the EU that's a lot of potential market going to waste by not being GDPR compliant. Unless, of course, their central business model is incompatible with GDPR-compliance in the first place...

In which case there can be no EU competitor.

You can have a competitor providing the same service using a different business model.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#356

Post by tinus_hn » Thu, May 10, 2018, 5:57 AM UTC

If that means they will no longer track me if I’m not a Facebook user, I’m all for it!

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#357

Post by dorgo » Thu, May 10, 2018, 7:38 AM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #348

dorgo wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you expand on this? How is good or bad not subjective?

I'm not really interested in expanding directly, but if you're curious, answering that question is an entire field of study called ethics . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

Thank you. Seems like you associate objectivity with popularity. Like in if all/most people consider something good/evil then it is objectively good/evil. I wasn't aware of this view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_and_evil

"... and that what is truly good or evil can be determined by examining what is commonly considered to be evil amongst all humans."

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#358

Post by Tharkun » Thu, May 10, 2018, 8:25 AM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #157

mpweiher wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? When I get on a train in Germany, I open the door and step inside. The train station is usually even simpler.

Same at least in Portugal, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and France.

I should have been more clear in my comment, I was referring to international high speed trains. Including mandatory registration of passengers and keeping the data for X years. Presumably these passenger manifests are also exchanged with other countries.

But even regional services include oodles of cameras, including on the trains. There's tracking of passengers and their destination. There are heavily armed guards/police/soldiers in many European train stations.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#359

Post by donatj » Thu, May 10, 2018, 8:47 AM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #318

donatj wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I simply mean having a contract indemnifying the company against GDPR, e.g. the user giving consent, to simply use the site. Same as the cookie situation Europe has, but more so.

That is very explicitly not allowed by the GDPR. You cannot make access to your service contingent on opting in. The consent has to be given freely, otherwise FB will be in violation of the regulation. Consent must also be given explicitly, you cannot have a pre-checked "yes" checkbox or an "accept and continue" button. Consent can also be given in a legally binding contract. A website ToS is very much not able to ov…

So you’re saying I’m required to develop two separate versions of my product? One for the users I can actually make money off and another for people who opt to get my product for free against my will?

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#360

Post by donatj » Thu, May 10, 2018, 8:51 AM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #341

donatj wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't deny you service if you don't agree to my terms of service? That seems to fundamentally break contract law.

I'd phrase it the other way around: you can't impose certain clauses in the contract (in this case, an obligation to consent to certain kinds of processing of personal data). Laws forbidding certain contract clauses are nothing new.

So I’m required to develop a bad version of my product for the small subset who don’t consent?

Sounds a ton like the Windows Reduced Edition fiasco all over again but at a much more massive scale - forcing by law the development of a product almost no one wants.