Earlier quoted context omitted.
What all professionals do, and what all potential home buyers should do, is run the actual numbers of expenses that is purely property taxes, interest, fees, expected maintenance, bills such as heating and electricity, and other related expenses not specifically reducing the amount of debt. That is the price of living in the house - compare that to renting a place. The difference between owning and renting expenses,…
Expected maintenance, LOL. Just saying as an older guy if you're not factoring in HVAC replacements, roof replacements, driveway replacements, appliance replacements, even the expenses of major yard work, you will miss thousands per year on average. I'll see these estimates online where people laughably expect to spend less than $1K/yr on home maint, LOL I spend that much on the roof averaged by year, and I spent mor…
Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)
351–360 of 497 posts
Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
The costs of buying a house in Belgium is ridiculous. It's 10% tax, lawyers cost about 5x more. If you put an offer down you're on the hook for 10% of the price if you pull out.
Indeed. It's quite hard to make a profit from selling your own home in Belgium unless you have lived there for a long time. However, it appears that these extra costs are what prevents the Belgian housing market from inflating the way it does in the UK or US, eventually resulting in lower costs for both renters and buyers. A three bedroom house in a desirable suburb of Brussels costs less than a 50 sq m one-bedroom f…
All kidding aside, yes, the high transaction costs are a real break on speculation in the housing market there.
Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
What all professionals do, and what all potential home buyers should do, is run the actual numbers of expenses that is purely property taxes, interest, fees, expected maintenance, bills such as heating and electricity, and other related expenses not specifically reducing the amount of debt. That is the price of living in the house - compare that to renting a place. The difference between owning and renting expenses,…
Expected maintenance, LOL. Just saying as an older guy if you're not factoring in HVAC replacements, roof replacements, driveway replacements, appliance replacements, even the expenses of major yard work, you will miss thousands per year on average. I'll see these estimates online where people laughably expect to spend less than $1K/yr on home maint, LOL I spend that much on the roof averaged by year, and I spent mor…
Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)
#354Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's really the thing. At some point, many/most people want a place that's their own which they can modify to their liking. And many of them will want a house of the sort that's difficult to rent long-term. And eventually, when retiring or looking towards retirement, they're going to want to live somewhere that can't be sold out from under them or have rent raised to the point they can't afford to live there any lo…
Something always breaks. But that doesn't mean it's not predictable. If you treat it as a monthly payment to the repairs fund, you are probably good.
But I agree with your general point. In the case of my paid-off house, I figure it's about [EDITED] $1K per month (counting some big projects) for upkeep (depending on how you count things that are nice-to-dos rather than strictly necessary) plus taxes and insurance. It is a very old house (early 1800s) so maintenance is probably a bit higher than a more modern house would be.
Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
My renter pays for my mortgage which includes principal and interest, landlord insurance, and taxes. Not to mention an additional $380 a month and profit that I put towards the principal and my 401(k).
This is perhaps the biggest argument in favor of ownership. Unless your landlord is _losing_ money on the deal, the price of rent takes _all_ other costs of ownership into account and then adds more on top of that. If you're renting, you most certainly _are_ losing money on the deal vs. what you'd pay if you owned _exactly_ the same property.
With the implication that the ONLY costs of a house are PITI, insurance, and taxes. However, if you add in reasonable, even cheap values for yardwork/lawncare, roof depreciation and replacement, HVAC depreciation and replacement, and general refurbishment remodeling and replacement of interior surfaces, OP is losing a large amount of money per month. The gamble is, will OPs house appreciate in value more than OP is losing per month, or will OPs other investments made with 380 be able to keep up? OP can always walk away and mail the keys to the lender, of course, if it comes to that, so maybe extracting $400/month with the intent to foreclose when eventually necessary is a legit plan.
A lot of people treat normal household expenses as an unfair accident, as if replacing the old fashioned tank water heater every decade is some totally unpredictable meteor strike that should never be accounted for in the cost of ownership.
In general most models of home ownership hold water if the only expenses accounted for are annual or shorter term, but I spend roughly the same amount, maybe more, on average, of expenses of longer than annual duration. $15K every 15 years for a roof is not unpredictable meteor strike but is actually about $85/month. Built in dishwashers are designed to break down requiring replacement every three years, which isn't a disaster but is thirty bucks per month on average. A new 5K asphalt driveway every twenty years is not an unpredictable accident but is about $20/month. True, none of these are small bleeds are over $100/month or so, but the average house has well over a dozen of them. Figure about $1K to $2K per month of longer than annual term expenses.
Then there are remodeling costs. Its very difficult to sell a house with a 1970s kitchen. Most house kitchens seem to get remodeled every two decades for perhaps $25K each time. You can pretend that was an unpredictable uninsured natural disaster, but more realistically you need to save $105/month for the periodic kitchen remodel. Of course a stylish avocado color bathroom or shag carpet era living room will require similar amounts of money... The expense of "fashion" is around $500 per month for a typical house. You can do the elderly WWII or boomer thing and refuse to remodel your house, but the cost is coming out of the sales price eventually. Wood paneled shag carpet rec room in the basement ... people are going to make fun of stainless steel appliances and especially granite countertops the same way in 2030 or so, if not sooner.
There do exist weird pseudo-accidental problems. Planting a fast growing inappropriate tree in a dangerous location is the same thing as committing to spending $1K for a bonded insured tree service to chop it down and grind the stump. You can try to hand wave away that nobody could have known that cute little pine sprig on the property line could be a kilobuck liability a decade later, but uh, yeah, many people could tell that a big dead tree overhanging the neighbors house is going to be an expensive and entirely predictable problem, eventually.
Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
But with renting there is no reward. EDIT: In addition to mobility cited by a reply to this comment, another advantage is the saved opportunity cost of investment in real estate vs other markets.
Having been burned badly in the real estate meltdown, there is a lot more freedom in renting than buying. I'm just now getting slightly inclined to consider buying again, but it would have to be a whopping deal. I've enjoyed renting since at least 2010. I especially like the ability to call the landlord and tell them that the sink is leaking and they need to get it fixed. Or the water heater stopped working, come out…
There are varying definitions of "freedom" to consider.
Sure, there is the freedom of being able to walk away after 12 months to someplace else.
But there is also the freedom of being able to plant a garden, or paint your room, or install shelving, or excavate a root cellar, or install a new doorknob, etc, without having to get express written permission from your landlord (which will almost always be no).
Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If you leverage 5X in a personal residence and the market drops by 30% (and you live in a no-recourse state), then you mail the keys to the bank and walk away. Very unique situation. But that seems dishonest.
> But that seems dishonest. It's not. The bank has calculated and accepted the risk and factored it into your interest rate and other charges. Considering it to be dishonest is financially equivalent to considering a (not fraudulent) insurance payout to be dishonest. Think about it this way. The bank has effectively bought an insurance policy to protect itself against this event and is paying the premium out of your…
That's not a true equivalency. Unless your loan has language or provisions for "mailing back the keys", doing so is an act of default and regardless of how well (or poorly) the lender(s) has/have hedged against the default you are breaking the agreement.
A real equivalency is stealing from walmart "because they can afford it". You shouldn't do that and you also shouldn't default on agreements you enter into.
Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)
#358Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)
#359Your cost to live there is the same as as the landlord's, except for 1. Landlord's profit 2. Mortgage transaction costs and 3. Efficiencies through shared expenses.
For #1, You have the power to shop around.
For #2, You want to find a place where the landlord has owned or plans to own for a long-time, so e.g. the realtor's fee has long since been amortized.
For #3, One larger, more efficient heater is better than a bunch of smaller ones. Same goes for insulation. Industrial appliances like washers and driers mean cheaper cost per use.
Optimizing the system is about balancing your landlord's fees for running the house against your own opportunity cost to run your house as a hobby, with two credits in your favor for shared resources and buried expenses like realtor's fees. If you're handy, or have a partner who can work from home, running the house as a hobby is easier. If you or all partners work out of the home, your non-work time is much more valuable and running the house as a hobby is much more difficult.
Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)
#360However, we might want to also consider other dimensions, like the social benefits of owning vs. renting. Is it really good for us as individuals and for society in general when property is concentrated in the hands of relatively few people? It's one thing to have a relatively large number of property owners who both rent their properties out and rent their own living space. It's a totally different thing when, say, several moguls and the government own 75% of the apartments in a city.
Also, while mobility is important for some, others form communities, and still others don't have that option or desire to move around. When you don't own, you don't really have skin in the game. If something sucks, you leave. When you own, you've put in your chips. You've bought a stake in the community. You're going to care more about both the property you live in and the neighborhood. If the market takes a turn locally, there will exist a greater incentive to make the changes necessary to buck the turn instead of just moving. If the schools suck, and you care about education, ownership is more likely to create the incentive to improve them. If you rent, you move to another district. For some, that move makes sense. But for many, it makes greater sense to improve what's around them.
In other words, the assumption that owning a house is primarily or solely an investment can be challenged as a narrow view of ownership.