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The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

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Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#351

Post by retbull »

neurobashing wrote: post #295
teachrdan wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real talk? I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer. And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost center. Some of the best career advice I've ever gleaned is to work on something that visibly makes money for the company. I get to do that every day at my tech company. I don't know that I could say that if I worked in a technical capacity in another industr…

Real talk? There is nothing wrong with being in IT. Imagine if someone said "I would be concerned I'd be seen as a carpenter and not a woodworking artisan". You're a carpenter. You nail boards together to serve the business interests of the company. Even if the boards are SQL queries or ReactJS or whatever. Companies need tech. You can bring value by making everyone's jobs better with your technology - sand off those…

IT fixes peoples computers. Software Developers don't do that. We aren't Network Admins, we don't know how to set up or fix AD and we don't manage hardware. IT is a different field. I write software to process data and mostly I don't interact with hardware or troubleshooting arbitrary software directly. If I am offering support I am a level above IT. I understand that IT needs to be done but it is a very different job and should be treated that way.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#352

Post by speby »

mylons wrote: post #231
colordrops wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you prefer? Some sort of rating or ranking system based off of objective standards?

licensing might not be a bad route, similar to a carpenter's license or a bar exam

Licensing probably could work in this industry but it would be a tough nut to implement. For starters, as others have mentioned, with so much change happening, re-licensing would probably be needed, and of course that's a huge cost, a pain, and overhead as well. But then again, as I think about potential solutions, I am kind of coming up dry. Really need to mull on this some more.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#353

Post by rahimnathwani »

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #315
newobj wrote: post #301

It's unreal that will people will bitch and moan about having to invest a couple days, maybe even a whole week in cramming/prepping/interviewing, to perform on-demand, one time, for a job that realistically will earn them $100k, $200k, $300k, $400k+ a year. Meanwhile people that work harder than us 5 days a week for the entire duration of their career will make 1/2, 1/4, 1/6th, or less of income, with none of the per…

Look at other fields for examples. Few have to interview like devs do. Other professionals may have continuing education like conferences, but that's not the same. Imagine nurses or docs getting asked to take vitals for an interview.

People have to go through exams and other assessment before they can put the title on their CV. They've been tested multiple times on their ability to 'take vitals' and other basic parts of their job.

Anyone can call themselves a software engineer, even if no one has ever tested their ability to reverse a linked list, or solve fizz buzz, or even write 'hello world' in a language of their choice.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#354

Post by adreamingsoul »

monocasa wrote: post #250
speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

I used to hate it, but have now performed enough interviews of supposedly senior devs with decades of experience. I've literally seen someone who did firmware for the space shuttle grind for 45 minutes on fizz buzz without making progress. Like, I'd they struggle for ten minutes or so, I take a step back and say "Ok, screw syntax, let's just vaguely talk about what needs to happen and mock up some pseudo code.". Even…

Check your premise.

It sounds to me that an assumption is being made because they didnt meet the expectations within a fixed time period. The danger with this is that this is not a real world scenerio of how two people would approach a task or problem. It’s also important to recognize that everyone is different with regards to how they process information. Stress has a real biological effect on how the brain processes information, and who doesnt feel stressed during an interview.

I’m somewhat autistic and struggle to process verbal information. But I try not to share that with people because I choose not to be labeled by it. It’s unfortunate that in our society that we have to conceal things like that.

All of us could be better at trying to understand people around us and accepting them for who they are instead of scrutinizing them for what they are not.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#355

Post by newobj »

mnm1 wrote: post #332
newobj wrote: post #301

It's unreal that will people will bitch and moan about having to invest a couple days, maybe even a whole week in cramming/prepping/interviewing, to perform on-demand, one time, for a job that realistically will earn them $100k, $200k, $300k, $400k+ a year. Meanwhile people that work harder than us 5 days a week for the entire duration of their career will make 1/2, 1/4, 1/6th, or less of income, with none of the per…

After you've been burned by these tests once or twice, you realize only the dumbest of the dumb would even consider taking such tests. Employers are so disrespectful, most times they won't even look at your submission. Buckets of money my ass. This is free work that often doesn't even get you an in-person interview. Companies that use these tests are really optimizing for the worst engineers, the most desperate, and…

"OK"

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#356

Post by speby »

ksk wrote: post #275
speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

Are programmers more dishonest than say artists? I imagine an artist could easily fake their portfolio too (especially if they were a digital artist). Maybe the artist would be found out much easier than a programmer. I think the fact that programmers have to re-prove themselves is more a symptom of non-technical people having no earthly idea of what it is that programmers actually do. For a programmer, its the same…

You are 100% right. In design work roles, people like to look at and review people's portfolios. They do it all the time. I suppose that maybe at least in that case, it's easier to verify that their work is their own? I don't know. I definitely do not think that programmers are any more or any less dishonest than most other professions.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#357

Post by Clubber »

nicolashahn wrote: post #103
commandlinefan wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially irritating considering I've dedicated tens of thousands of dollars and six years of my life completing a bachelor's and a master's degree in computer science where people whose entire job was to give me tests and evaluate me on them - maybe you'd like to take their word for it?

The problem is, there are people with those degrees who still can't even code fizzbuzz.

That's a bunch of hooey used to justify crappy interviewing practices. Now there are people who say that have those degrees that don't, but that's verified by a simple phone call to the school.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#358

Post by [deleted] »

reaperducer wrote: post #255
speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. Agreed. The solution is to not work at a tech company, but instead work in a tech capacity at a real company. - No silly games (before or after hiring). - Better benefits (I'd rather have proper health coverage and a pension than a room full of toys and vaporware stock options). - Immensely more job security (Henry Ford didn't have an "exit strategy"). - Peo…

[deleted]

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#359

Post by trowawee »

newobj wrote: post #325
131012 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't know for sure that dad/friend/partner didn't write or review the assignment either. How about a 4-5 hours coding rush in the office, where you have to add a few functions or features to an existing codebase?

> You can't know for sure that dad/friend/partner didn't write the assignment either. I don't follow what you're implying here, sorry? > How about a 4-5 hours coding rush in the office, where you have to add a few functions or features to an existing codebase? I work at a company where we actively keep a small set of tasks groomed for new hires. It's extremely difficult to keep a set of meaningful actually-in-the-cod…

The best option I've seen were recently-solved small problems. We would roll back a few commits, take that code into the room with the candidate, and pair-program a solution or partial solution in a fairly tightly-scoped time period, and then review the solution with another interviewer. That way, we've got an idea of what to work towards, usually still a pretty solid sense of where the problem exists in the context of the overall app, and we hit a couple of crucial skillsets - collaborating on a project, reviewing code. It wasn't perfect, but it worked reasonably well.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#360

Post by tytytytytytytyt »

newnewpdro wrote: post #321
monocasa wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to hate it, but have now performed enough interviews of supposedly senior devs with decades of experience. I've literally seen someone who did firmware for the space shuttle grind for 45 minutes on fizz buzz without making progress. Like, I'd they struggle for ten minutes or so, I take a step back and say "Ok, screw syntax, let's just vaguely talk about what needs to happen and mock up some pseudo code.". Even…

Which may have proven nothing more than this person was too nervous to function.

So hire everyone who can't function during the interview?
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