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A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

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Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#351

Post by Xylakant »

ptaipale wrote: post #347
Xylakant wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Over here, about 2/3 of collisions between motor vehicle and bicycle are fault of the motor vehicle driver. But that leaves 1/3 where cyclist errors or breaches of traffic code are reason, which is also significant. You are assuming that this 1/3rd is due to lack of knowledge - I question that assertion. And still, regular retraining of motor vehicle drivers would still be a better investment. They choose to move a…

Likewise, that 2/3 is mostly not due to lack of knowledge. Over here (Finland), driving license training and testing nowadays has increased "attitude" training, as that is seen becoming more important than knowledge of traffic rules etc. Here, a motor vehicle was involved in 62 % of all bicyclist deaths over the period 2011-2015 (116 cases). Motor vehicle was not the guilty party in all of those (but in roughly 2/3 o…

> So, motor vehicle driver was at fault in about 40 % of cyclist deaths.

Without any breakdown of who was at fault in the other accidents your stats still indicate that in comparison between bikes and motor vehicles, motor vehicle drivers are still twice as likely to be at fault. Retrain them before you retrain cyclists.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#352

Post by cup-of-tea »

papermule wrote: post #238
keir-rex wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a subset of drivers in the UK who have a resentment to sharing the road with cyclists. Their primary arguments follow; “car drivers pay road tax...” or “cyclists should be forced to sit a driving/road test...” blah blah. There are certainly cyclists who do nothing to help the reputation for the rest but car drivers fail to realise how vulnerable cyclists and motorcyclists are.

Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road? Others road users must have one. ---- It's a shame I'm getting downvoted, but the current state of affairs is that in cities like London bicycles, cars and trucks will be sharing the road for the near-mid future. I'd rather not have trucks or cars in the city, and ideally cyclists would have their own road separate from cars and pedestrians, but I think that'…

Operating a vehicle requires a licence because it is a lot of responsibility. You can kill people or do serious damage to property if you are unable to operate one safely. Riding a bike is something children can do. Do you suggest a licence to walk as well?

I would like to see a road bicycle test, though. But it would be for potential motorists, not cyclists. I think if you want to operate a motorvehicle on the road you must be able to demonstrate an ability to operate a bicycle on the road.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#353

Post by doctor_fact »

gaius wrote: post #191
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main type of accident involving cyclists in Denmark are so called 'right turn accidents' It's the same in London, a city with notoriously poor cycling infrastructure and narrow streets due to long history. Ok, it's the "left turn" mirror image version due to driving on the left not right side of the road, but otherwise the same.

It’s not helped by cyclists habit of going straight on from a left turn lane.

It's not helped by drivers harrassing cyclists who are not in the, empty, left turn lane "because they want to get by".

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#354

Post by chimprich »

papermule wrote: post #238
keir-rex wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a subset of drivers in the UK who have a resentment to sharing the road with cyclists. Their primary arguments follow; “car drivers pay road tax...” or “cyclists should be forced to sit a driving/road test...” blah blah. There are certainly cyclists who do nothing to help the reputation for the rest but car drivers fail to realise how vulnerable cyclists and motorcyclists are.

Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road? Others road users must have one. ---- It's a shame I'm getting downvoted, but the current state of affairs is that in cities like London bicycles, cars and trucks will be sharing the road for the near-mid future. I'd rather not have trucks or cars in the city, and ideally cyclists would have their own road separate from cars and pedestrians, but I think that'…

> Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road?

Thought experiment: if you didn't have any motorised vehicles on the road, would you still want cyclists to have a licence?

In a general case though, requiring cyclists to have a licence would reduce the number of cyclists, probably significantly. This would correspondingly increase the number of motorists.

This dual effect would have a number of negative impacts. More motorists lead to more congestion, more CO2 emitted and poorer air quality. Poorer air quality leads to health problems, up to and including deaths. CO2 causes climate change, and greater congestion has an economic impact. Fewer people cycling mean fewer people getting exercise, leading to more health problems, up to and including deaths.

I'm confident these problems would overshadow the small improvements in cyclist safety you might gain with a cycling licence requirement. There are better ways to improve cycling safety.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#355

Post by dingo_bat »

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

100% agreed. This is just basic common sense: don't take a junction at a speed greater than 20km/h, no matter what. That's it. I slow down instinctively at junctions. I literally cannot see the other road because of trees/buildings. How can I assume it is clear?

Same is true for bicyclists. Slow. The. Fuck. Down. At. Intersections.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#356

Post by cup-of-tea »

papermule wrote: post #248
jjgreen wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pedestrians don't.

Pedestrians are, with the exception of some rural areas, provided with dedicated carriage such as a pavement or sidewalk. The rules of crossing the road are well defined and in some European countries pedestrians are even arrested for J walking.

"Some rural areas" is in reality almost every mile of road outside of towns. You've clearly never walked in the countryside.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#357

Post by jakubp »

cup-of-tea wrote: post #352
papermule wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road? Others road users must have one. ---- It's a shame I'm getting downvoted, but the current state of affairs is that in cities like London bicycles, cars and trucks will be sharing the road for the near-mid future. I'd rather not have trucks or cars in the city, and ideally cyclists would have their own road separate from cars and pedestrians, but I think that'…

Operating a vehicle requires a licence because it is a lot of responsibility. You can kill people or do serious damage to property if you are unable to operate one safely. Riding a bike is something children can do. Do you suggest a licence to walk as well? I would like to see a road bicycle test, though. But it would be for potential motorists, not cyclists. I think if you want to operate a motorvehicle on the road…

Wow... Children can also drive cars, ride motorbikes, fly planes, perform surgery. That doesn't mean it's in society's best interest to let them without some training or examination beforehand.

The difficulty in riding a bike in a city doesn't come from having to control the vehicle. Danger doesn't come from the ability to maim someone with a bike. It comes from hugely complex set of rules, dynamic nature of traffic, high speed high pressure decision making necessary, sensory overload and fatigue, self control, competition on the road etc.

That's what you need to take into account to navigate safely.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#358

Post by mc32 »

chimprich wrote: post #354
papermule wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road? Others road users must have one. ---- It's a shame I'm getting downvoted, but the current state of affairs is that in cities like London bicycles, cars and trucks will be sharing the road for the near-mid future. I'd rather not have trucks or cars in the city, and ideally cyclists would have their own road separate from cars and pedestrians, but I think that'…

> Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road? Thought experiment: if you didn't have any motorised vehicles on the road, would you still want cyclists to have a licence? In a general case though, requiring cyclists to have a licence would reduce the number of cyclists, probably significantly. This would correspondingly increase the number of motorists. This dual effect would have a number of negative i…

Not all cyclist ride one speed "gentleman/lady" bikes. Many travel upto 30mph. That's a safety concern. There have been a number of cases of cyclists running over pedestrians resulting in serious injury, so it's not inconceivable to require licensing.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#359

Post by usrusr »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #60
jmts wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometimes I wonder if I would have actually hit them if anyone would have believed I didn’t see them As a daily motorcyclist that also drives a car, I'm uncomfortably aware of how much of your vision the A-pillar obscures. Not to mention the passenger side one, the B-pillars, and seating. That said, it is as much my responsibility (or any road user, or pedestrian) not to put myself into a dangerous position as much…

It seems to be worse in newer cars. Most cars I've driven have been older models, pre-2000, every time I have to drive a new car, I'm always surprised at how bad the visibility is, they all have tiny rear windows and massive A pillars. I used to own an old Datsun truck from the 1980s and the A-pillar blindspot was tiny because it had small, vertical A-pillars. A-pillars are a lot thicker and a lot more angled in newe…

Airbags and crash test results are sales material, likelihood of running over a pedestrian is not. The incentives favor occupant safety over general safety.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#360

Post by ptaipale »

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

Blocking the view? Strange, I think the views to the road that crosses this one are remarkably open here. Before looking at this, I thought there could be some hedges or such for which England is famous, but I can't think of any excuse for why a driver doesn't see a bike when approaching from [1] or [2]. The visibility is very good.
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