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The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

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Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the government spends and the economy responds productively to that spending, then you're fine. Taxing is a separate issue. You should only really tax when you want to remove money from a specific part of the economy. Or when you don't want your government to run a deficit. Or when you don't want to finance your government by printing money. That always ends badly, no matter how clever the mechanism is this time…

> Or when you don't want to finance your government by printing money. The point is you can finance your government by just printing money. If the value of your expenditure raises the wealth of the nation by the same amount, there will be no inflation. Though I would say it's just a hidden wealth tax.

Yes, that's true - for the part of the government budget that raises the wealth of the nation. That's not the whole budget, though.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"evidence presented to support this is very thin" Autonomous cars are on the roads today. They're a ways off from serving as reliable truckers or taxis, but that's in our future. We're seeing rapid advancements in machine learning, especially in computer vision and abstract strategy games. Trucking alone accounts for 5% of the US GDP [1], and employs 1.7 million Americans annually [2]. That's about 1/10 of the total…

Only 17 million US workers with a population of 320 million. That can't be right. Maybe 1/100?

yup, I dropped a 0 there. Should be 1/100.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By voluntary system you mean the wealthy voluntarily turning over the wealth that they won't let us tax them for? It doesn't make sense. Many other cultures have a gift economy, where the powerful voluntarily redistribute their wealth in exchange for status. Culture is very powerful, often overpowering pure economics. Warren Buffet and Bill Gates have already pledged huge fractions of their wealth towards the common…

Yeah but there's no solution in your post. Culture can be powerful but we don't exist in the culture you want and I don't see a good way to get there. Hand waving about voluntarism and a culture shift isn't going to fix anything. Tax the shit out of the rich and make them pay for it.

Culture can be powerful but we don't exist in the culture you want and I don't see a good way to get there.

We used to exist in a culture where women had no options outside of the home and black people were slaves.

Hand waving about voluntarism and a culture shift isn't going to fix anything. Tax the shit out of the rich and make them pay for it.

In order to tax the rich heavily, you still need a culture shift here in the US. Wherever such taxation works, there is already a thread of communal culture. In order to achieve the same in the US, you need a cultural shift, and not setting up to do that work and simply saying "tax the shit out of the rich" is the hand waving. You're using a slogan that exploits resentment, not setting up for real change.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#354
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be joking. Wealth people? Depart with wealth? Willingly? People who fund raise for non-profits convince the wealthy to part with their wealth all the time. If we changed society to make this the way to have a legacy as a rich person, then it would happen. Cultures around the world have convinced their wealthy and powerful to do far wackier things than endow an intentional community. History shows us that the…

Well there is some success in getting rich people to divorce with the majority of their money, but as a general rule you don’t make money by giving it away. I don’t see any tax scheme succeeding if it depends on the participation of the taxed—that will be abused by the rich, who have more resources to launder money.

Getting the wealthy to depart with their money works if it's voluntary, and the impetus comes from the culture they want to be a part of. When it doesn't work, it's when other people try to force them to do it. Also, if you look at cultures where heavy progressive taxation works, you'll find there is already a communal thread of culture on which it's based.

Schemes to tax the rich and powerful only succeed with the participation of the rich and powerful. That is what you are also saying, but your view is distorted because you are othering "the rich."

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#355
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vast majority of the wealthy pay every dime of their taxes, because one of the few things that wealth can't buy is protection from the IRS. Now of course they do everything they can to avoid taxes , but very few evade them. I'm not so wealthy, but if I can legally avoid paying a tax, I will. That's more available for my retirement, charitable causes, and my family. I don't expect more from the wealthy than I do of my…

That comment is talking about tax avoidance . They are going out of their way to not pay these taxes, but they'd give away the same money or more if nobody tried to "make them"? I wouldn't hold my breath. > I don't expect more from the wealthy than I do of myself. When you're not wealthy, you have strong needs for that extra money. So I definitely do expect more from the wealthy, in terms of dollar amount. In terms o…

They are going out of their way to not pay these taxes, but they'd give away the same money or more if nobody tried to "make them"?

To force them, out of resentment, as if they are immoral villains or monsters. Do you take well to being treated as an immoral villain?

I wouldn't hold my breath.

This is exactly how successful museums operate. What would be so outlandish about changing the culture, such that intentional community trusts become the prominent way of showing a legacy? Hell, we already are basically doing this for wildlife. Why not do this for human beings?

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#356
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Why is it a problem for people to spend their money how they choose? If people buy drugs and cheetos or whatever, then isn't that their call? If people who need housing have the money to buy housing, but they're not buying buying housing, then I agree that's a problem that needs to be addressed. Do we see this in practice? Is there an epidemic of people who can afford homes but are choosing to suffer in homelessne…

1. It isn't, that's not what I'm saying (if you're talking about their freedom to do something...if you're talking about society in general it seems obvious that certain behaviors are bad and should be discouraged). But if you're going to tax me, and then give this money away to people it seems reasonable that I should have at least some say in what it's spent on...which just gets us back to the same discussions abou…

Good points.

> if you're talking about their freedom to do something...if you're talking about society in general it seems obvious that certain behaviors are bad and should be discouraged

Okay. So you want to discourage people buying cheetos and drugs. That's fine. I agree that they can both be unhealthy. What's a good way to discourage the purchase of these items?

Furthermore, pretty much any activity choose to spend your time doing can fall somewhere on the continuum of worthwhileness. And different activities are worthwhile to different extents to different people. But to what extent should we be judging people's activities and disallowing certain activities? Should it extend into how they spend their money? Does it make sense for these restrictions only to apply to poor people? Why? I'm not saying there's an easy answer here. I agree with you that some people need help making the right decisions sometimes and I agree with you that we need laws to protect people.

> but if you're going to tax me, and then give this money away to people it seems reasonable that i should have at least some say in what it's spent on

I haven't said anything about taxing you. I'm not talking about taking your money and giving it to someone else. I understand that some basic income proponents think that it has to be "funded" through tax revenue, but I feel that it's a mistake to frame things in this way. Increasing taxes doesn't increase the level of basic income we can afford.

That being said, the purpose of the government is to represent the collective interests of the people, so you absolutely should have a say in how the government spends their money (it's not your money). And if you have strong feelings about how certain types of spending will help or hurt people, then you're obviously free to voice those concerns.

But I don't see how it hurts people to give them money they can spend on anything they choose. And if we really want to deter people from buying drugs and cheetos, I'm not sure that putting absolute conditions on how poor individuals spend their income is an optimal way to achieve that.

> which just gets us back to the same discussions about what UBI evolves into and the kind of culture changes required for it to work (if it's even possible for it to work...that is not a certainty).

You've been alluding to a required culture change. What would that entail, specifically?

> This "if you give the money they'll spend it in your economy" thing is I think by no means clear. The largest cash source in Mexico is remittance payments from the US.

Well, some of the basic income will get spent in our economy. To the extent that some of it goes straight to Mexico never to return, it's roughly the equivalent of the government spending money by tossing it down a hole. That portion of the spending has no effect on our economy. This means that we can increase the amount of the basic income even further because our economy has left over capacity to absorb more spending.

> The reason I brought up the "global citizen" model is because there's a lack of skepticism and critical analysis on it and people make blanket statements like "the first country to give everyone in the world money" are actually taken seriously.

Fair enough. I am often not taken seriously when I say things like that. But that doesn't mean I haven't thought about it thoroughly. So thanks for taking me seriously and asking me questions to try to understand where I'm coming from.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#357

The question I’m interested in: How do we unlock maximum human potential? Last I checked, welfare does the opposite of this. It helps people merely subsist, not strive for greatness. Then he goes on to compare YC to basic income. Seriously? They take a share in your company and help you develop it. That isn't money for nothing. If he weren't a millionaire and the current president of YC, would we keep seeing articles…

You gotta understand - in tech - a company's brand value is important for early adopters and legitimacy. Part of that brand has to be 'benevolence'. In tech, it's important to be seen as 'the good guys'. 'We're on a cause to help, the money is secondary' - is the basis for a SV company brand. Understand that the materiality of the benevolence is irrelevant. Only the perception. The soon to be Princess Merkle (or what…

> Remember Google's original premise was to do something about 'ads that were destroying the internet' and to 'do no evil'.

Well, during that time they did replace the obnoxious flash/gif ads of the day with unobtrusive text ads, and iirc mostly did no evil.

> We ignore the middle aged lady down the street who volunteers at the Salvation Army two days a week about it and doesn't say a peep about it, doesn't put it on her resume.

The problem with silent altruism of this sort is that Angelina Jolie donating a few million to some cause will be less effective (in her particular situation) to that cause than Angelina Jolie donating a few million and also running a social media blitz to raise another few million from fans. I understand that as a side effect she might become more popular, which might lead to more lucrative movie contracts, etc. But I wouldn't even begin to be cynical about this until it was pretty conclusively demonstrated that her net benefit (from increased popularity, or whatever) actually exceeded her own interest (e.g. what some despicable televangelists do.)

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#358
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't UBI reduce the economic productivity by both driving up the cost of labor through increased taxation No. First of all, there's no reason that basic income has to have any taxes associated with it. A common mistake people (including the government) make is to assume that government spending must be funded by taxation. It doesn't have to be. If the government spends and the economy responds productively to th…

> If the government spends and the economy responds productively to that spending, then you're fine. Taxing is a separate issue. You should only really tax when you want to remove money from a specific part of the economy. Or when you don't want your government to run a deficit. Or when you don't want to finance your government by printing money. That always ends badly, no matter how clever the mechanism is this time…

> > If the government spends and the economy responds productively to that spending, then you're fine. Taxing is a separate issue. You should only really tax when you want to remove money from a specific part of the economy.

> Or when you don't want your government to run a deficit.

Why wouldn't you want to run a deficit? What do you feel is the downside? Are there times when it's appropriate to run a deficit and times when it's not? Which times are which and how do you tell the difference?

I have my own answers to these questions. But I'm asking for your opinion.

> Or when you don't want to finance your government by printing money.

What do you feel the difference is between deficit spending and printing money?

> That always ends badly, no matter how clever the mechanism is this time, or how many people say "it's different this time".

Does it? Why do you suppose it is that many developed nations are running budget deficits? Do you feel that this is a mistake? What do you think would happen if all governments balanced their budgets?

Again, I have my own answers to these questions and I'm looking for your opinion.

> I don't think the economy works the way you think it works...

How do you think it works?

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#359
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question I’m interested in: How do we unlock maximum human potential? > Last I checked, welfare does the opposite of this. It helps people merely subsist, not strive for greatness. It depends what you mean by "human potential." I agree with you that "human potential" is not the right way to frame what basic income unlocks. By giving people money to spend, it unlocks the economy's potential to produce wealth for…

> By giving people money to spend, it unlocks the economy's potential to produce wealth for the people. This is a corollary to the myth that wealthy people hoard cash. They do not. 100% of their cash is invested, even the money held in a checking account (because the bank loans it out to people who spend it).

> > By giving people money to spend, it unlocks the economy's potential to produce wealth for the people.

> This is a corollary to the myth that wealthy people hoard cash. They do not.

It depends on your definition of "hoard." I agree with you that they don't literally stuff it into mattresses... usually.

> 100% of their cash is invested, even the money held in a checking account (because the bank loans it out to people who spend it).

I agree. But a question we might ask ourselves is how much of that money is invested productively. In other words, how much of it flows back into the hands of the consumers for the purchase of useful wealth that benefits them? The answer is: not all of it.

Then we can ask ourselves how much of that money flows into the financial sector and accumulates there without fueling the productive economy. The answer is: some of it.

From the perspective of the productive economy, the result is the same as if rich people were stuffing their money into mattresses.

So that money needs to be replaced. Historically, to the extent that we've replaced that money, we've tried to do it through the labor market and we've been moderately successful.

One of the things we do is monetary stimulus that increases the amount of lending in the private financial sector. Some of that lending goes to the creation of jobs that we probably don't need. It also destabilizes the economy by fueling credit bubbles like the one we saw collapse in 2008.

Basic income is an alternative. If you prefer, you can think of it as a form of fiscal stimulus that would allow the Fed to normalize interest rates.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#360
post #221
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry. I'm scattering everything around. You can read more about my basic income project here: http://www.greshm.org If you don't feel like clicking the link, I'm developing a USD-backed basic income system that does the equivalent of deficit spending to fund a basic income. If you think that sounds crazy, then most people agree with you.

I think it sounds crazy too but I would love to be proven wrong. :) Do you have a background in macroeconomics?

I'm self taught mostly from books and MOOCs and arguing with friends of mine who are actual economists. Perhaps my lack of formal economics training is another reason not to listen to me.

If you're interested in going deep on this stuff, I highly recommend this MOOC:

https://www.coursera.org/learn/money-banking

He doesn't talk about basic income, but this class really helped me understand the nature of money and economic policy.

If you're curious about more about the economics of a deficit-funded basic income, I'm working on a paper about that. Here's the abstract:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9KDLUTAOkduOXdNQWl3REw4eWc...

Feel free to email me if you're interested in reading the full paper. It's over 50 pages long, but it's not very mathy and should (hopefully) be accessible to non-economists.

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