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Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

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Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#351

Post by eridius »

kuschku wrote: post #347
eridius wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is specious reasoning. Company B is not doing "the same thing" at all. Company B is collecting data, but not only is it far more limited (e.g. collecting domains instead of URLs), it's done in a way that protects privacy. You can't just throw up your hands and say "well, they're collecting some data, therefore we may as well just throw away all privacy protections and use the browser by the company whose busines…

Opt-Out vs Opt-In is a question of consent. Do you value your own benefits more than my own right to determine my own life? If yes (and that’s what you get when you choose opt-out), then we’re done. There is no gradual change there, it’s a binary question if you value the user or your own benefit more.

The world is not black & white. If Firefox starts collecting a small amount of data in a privacy-sensitive manner and makes it opt-out, that does not at al make it equivalent to e.g. Google collecting all the user data it can.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#352

Post by bugmen0t »

The linked paper to RAPPOR is really, really noteworthy here.

In essence, Firefox will ask itself whether it visited website X and flip a coin and if it's heads, it will lie to the server and send a random boolean. If it's tail, it will not. This way there is no way for anyone (including Mozilla) to know whether you actually visited the website. But the statistics will work out such that the collective data from everyone will give a good representation of all users. I find this a neat technology to collect data in a privacy-preserving way. And there's an opt-out (opt-in won't work because it creates bias and provides messy results).

I really, honestly don't understand why people are so upset.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#353

Post by yborg »

dagenleg wrote: post #143

In the end Mozilla is simply going to go through with it and there's nothing we can do about it. Just like with the killing of the XUL plugins - the company simply didn't care about the outcry. I mean why would they? The amount of people that cares about stuff like 'customization' or 'privacy' is slim. So we will toothlessly complain but then the changes will be shoved in our throats, because obviously why would one…

The good news is that the project remains open source. The upcoming XULpocalypse already was set to make the existing Firefox forks permanent, so those of us that care will be moving to one of these anyway. Presumably these will not contain telemetry code.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#355

Post by kuschku »

eridius wrote: post #351
kuschku wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opt-Out vs Opt-In is a question of consent. Do you value your own benefits more than my own right to determine my own life? If yes (and that’s what you get when you choose opt-out), then we’re done. There is no gradual change there, it’s a binary question if you value the user or your own benefit more.

The world is not black & white. If Firefox starts collecting a small amount of data in a privacy-sensitive manner and makes it opt-out, that does not at al make it equivalent to e.g. Google collecting all the user data it can.

But it means they have an equal value system: Convenience being always more important than Privacy.

And that’s strictly incompatible with mine.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#356

Post by RaleyField »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #337
disconnected wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I get your point. You need the extra debugging information. Now, here's my concern. I DO NOT want compromises. I DO NOT want to balance anything. I DO NOT want this telemetry crud on my browser spewing out my browsing history to anyone, no matter how anonymous you people claim it will be. I just want a decent web browser. What are my options? "Mozilla's way or the highway"? Redirect evil.telemetry.things.mozilla.…

There'll be an opt-out, just as there always has. That's not what's being discussed here. The question is whether to allow these stats to be collected as an opt-out vs opt-in.

Before you send any telemetry get informed consent by presenting the user a dialog enumerating everything that you are sending and I'd be fine with opt-out otherwise this is a dark pattern and you are getting on my shit list.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#357

Post by SubiculumCode »

gbuk2013 wrote: post #309
SubiculumCode wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would outlaw locks for the front doors of houses too?

No, because physical goods and 0's and 1's are not the same.

All 0's and 1's occupy real electrons in real space. They are not part of the ether. You are making a distinction between electronic information and the physical that is artificially derived.

I think perhaps you are saying that a pattern of information should not be locked up, but instantiations of a pattern can be.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#358

Post by eridius »

kuschku wrote: post #355
eridius wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is not black & white. If Firefox starts collecting a small amount of data in a privacy-sensitive manner and makes it opt-out, that does not at al make it equivalent to e.g. Google collecting all the user data it can.

But it means they have an equal value system: Convenience being always more important than Privacy. And that’s strictly incompatible with mine.

Except that's not true. Firefox collecting a small amount of data in a privacy-aware manner does not mean "convenience being always more important than privacy", not by a long shot. I don't understand why you're insisting on such an absolute black & white viewpoint.

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#359

Post by yuhong »

syshum wrote: post #343
Ajedi32 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opt-in inevitably results in data being heavily biased in favor of the small minority of users who go out of their way to opt-in. For some stuff that's fine, but for certain types of data you really do need a broad, unbiased sample of users in order for the data to be at all meaningful. (Usually to answer questions like "What percentage of users use x feature?" Or "What level of jank does the average user experience…

>>Provided this feature doesn't compromise anyone's privacy even _if_ its enabled, what's wrong with having it be opt-out? The only Anonymous Data is data that is never collected. If they collect data it is a violation of privacy.

Why?

Re: Studying how Firefox can collect additional data in a privacy-preserving way

#360

Post by pessimizer »

sp332 wrote: post #294
syshum wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would not be no marketshare. It would be the market share you have today people that respect the princibles FF once stood for Mozilla is not happy with us current users though, they would much rather trade us for Edge and Chrome Users.. Mozilla has made it clear it does not value the Users that desire Privacy, Customization, and Power in the hands of the user. Mozilla has Dreams of "beating chrome" a pursuit I hav…

But the marketshare "today" is tanking. It's at 10% and falling. There's no reason it won't get so small that it can't support development any longer.

Then it might be more appropriate to say "has attempted to trade us for Edge and Chrome Users." I think it's inevitable that if they continue on the path they've been on since they started losing marketshare they will disappear, and sadly with so many years of audience-alienating development behind them that no one will pick it up.

The only hope is that one of the forks of earlier versions manages to get enough developers and an institution behind it that they can bring it back to popularity, but before that happens we might be calling the internet "Chromenet" and google won't allow you to visit their sites unless they have been signed with a valid Chrome developer key.

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