Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#351

Post by enraged_camel » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:36 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #257

Joeri wrote: post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

> sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. To play devils advocate, sexism is a thing everywhere . In some cases, there are good biological reasons why men and women are treated differently, e.g. child care (mostly women) versus hard physical labor (mostly men) Where those biological differences aren't effective (e.g. typing on a keyboard), then yes, men and women should be treated the same. But even with…

>>But even with that, there may be biological reasons why men and women are interested in different things. Which may mean more women in job A, or more men in job B.

You say biological reasons, I say social programming. The whole nature vs. nurture debate has been going on for ages.

Basically, we have no way of knowing what portion of women's tendencies to gravitate towards certain jobs and careers can be attributed to biological factors vs. to the way they were raised by their parents and conditioned by society.

Consider this: back in the 50s and 60s, women dominated computer programming. It was seen as an obvious career choice for young, talented women. This article explains the history much better:

http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011/researcher-reveals-how-...

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#352

Post by HelloNurse » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

bobcostas55 wrote: post #287

>and downplays the impact of obvious and unobjectionable steps like [..] "give expectant mothers maternity leave" This is a bit off-topic, but maternity leave is neither obvious nor unobjectionable. There is significant empirical evidence that shows that policies such as long paid maternity leave harms women's wages and career progression. Have a look at: * The impact of Nordic countries’ family friendly policies on…

That's why civilized countries are moving on, from mandatory leave for mothers to mandatory leave for both parents.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#353

Post by greenshackle2 » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:41 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #156

noir_lord wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought since the 90's that programmers need a professional body with teeth. Doctors have them, lawyers have them, civil engineers have them. Lots of software written is at least as critical as what the above professionals do. But software is a young field compared to all the above so I think it'll take time (or several really serious disasters...which is how the civil engineers got theirs).

Well there is the BCS but it is completely irrelevant and it's a mystery how it still exists. It does absolutely nothing for working engineers and seems to be just a front for large employers to perpetuate the skills shortage myth while unemployment among CS grads hovers between 10 and 13%.

[citation needed] on that unemployment figure. Is that a unemployment for recent graduates, or anyone with a CS degree?

I find that figure surprising because:

1) https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/11/19/the-colle...

2) This is purely anecdotal, but I've had no problem finding jobs as a self-taught programmer in Canada. I'm paid nearly 6 figures with 3 years of experience in a field where I don't have formal training. If that's not sign of a skills shortage, I don't know what is.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#354

Post by HelloNurse » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:41 PM UTC

Aqueous wrote: post #345

bobcostas55 wrote: post #287

>and downplays the impact of obvious and unobjectionable steps like [..] "give expectant mothers maternity leave" This is a bit off-topic, but maternity leave is neither obvious nor unobjectionable. There is significant empirical evidence that shows that policies such as long paid maternity leave harms women's wages and career progression. Have a look at: * The impact of Nordic countries’ family friendly policies on…

> There is significant empirical evidence that shows that > policies such as long paid maternity leave harms women's wages and career progression. Let's be clear here and not mis-assign causality. The workplace's reaction to paid maternity leave harms a woman's career and wages. Not maternity leave itself.

Any kind of leave is a gap in the worker's experience and in the value the worker provides to the company.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#355

Post by kelukelugames » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:41 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #198

Sexism in Silicon Valley or sexism among the corporate elites? I doubt the average tech worker, who doesn't travel in private jets, casually talks about porn actresses and sex workers at their job. However, I have often heard and read such anecdotes about elite executives, also in non-tech sectors. I'd say that kind of attitude is more related to the impunity that comes with power than with tech or non-tech.

Maybe the degree is different. At my last job the CEO joked about sex with his twin's wife in the hallway. A director looked at porn during hackathon. A manager told some awkward story about his sister in law and stripper poles at a team outing. And an employee made some dumb sexual pun. Guess which one got in trouble.

Maybe the higher up you are the more brazen you can be.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#356

Post by p49k » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:42 PM UTC

uniformlyrandom wrote: post #336

p49k wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What specific behaviors of Pao would you compare to the constant harassment and mistreatment she experienced at KP? From my recollection, most of the criticism she received was related to poor decisions she made at Reddit, and it has since been revealed by Yishan Wong that she was not actually the person who made those decisions and that she was used as a scapegoat.

> revealed by Yishan Wong If what he said could be trusted. He also made a bunch of questionable decisions at Reddit, so I take whatever he says with a grain of salt.

Ohanian confirmed what he said about Pao, though.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#357

Post by dmix » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:42 PM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

I can't imagine anything more unprofessional than raving about meeting a washed up porn star and then talking about sex workers in the company of people you are not intimately familiar with. Although you could say it was a 'social' moment on the jet, not a professional meeting (as Pao seems to believe it was) where there should always be much more latitude on conversation topics, it's still very distasteful.

I normally have a very high tolerance for talking about any topic but anyone who says that stuff in public and not in the small company of close friends has bigger issues than just sexism.

As others have pointed out most of these situations sound like grown men acting like frat boys or teenagers, not adult males with a singular problem with how they treat women. These are men who need to learn how to act around other adults and how to treat people with respect in public. Or at a very minimum leave it for your off-time among close friends in private.

Software has largely confronted the 'brogrammer' issue publicly, and I believe is working to improve itself, but it's well known that finance is still heavily influenced by untamed frat boy culture. This is a culture where these immature boys don't get their behaviour properly confronted and corrected. Especially when you throw personal wealth into the occassion.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#358

Post by wiz21c » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:43 PM UTC

davrosthedalek wrote: post #338

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> long paid maternity leave harms women's wages and career progression Of course it does. What it benefits is the actual human beings in question (child, mother, father). Most humans think that significantly increasing the well-being of your family, and in particular your infant, is a whole fucking lot more important than wages and career progression. Like all things in life it's a trade off, but an unobjectionally g…

RE your analogy, I don't think this is true in general. There are many jobs/people where the downtime is needed to perform better. That's certainly the case for me and in my field. To your main point: You are absolutely right. Germany, for example, tries to symmetries the problem by allowing fathers to take part of the maternity leave. But of course, especially in high paying jobs where companies have to invest a con…

As a (happy) dad, I'm very surprised by this :

>>> Do we, as a society, treat the privilege to raise a child as adequate replacement of the lost salary/promotions etc?

I'm very surprised of the opposition you make here.

I'd prefer : Do we, as a society, treat the choice to raise a child as one that doesn't imply the loss of salary/promotions etc?

(but in my case, my employer has never spent tons of money on me; "considerable training" means to me : a year of full time training such as : mastering a foreign tongue, mastering a technical field besides IT, etc. It's certainly not "we'll leave you learn by yourself at night and pay for your lack of efficiency during the first 6 months of work"))

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#359

Post by sctb » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:43 PM UTC

bobcostas55 wrote: post #287

>and downplays the impact of obvious and unobjectionable steps like [..] "give expectant mothers maternity leave" This is a bit off-topic, but maternity leave is neither obvious nor unobjectionable. There is significant empirical evidence that shows that policies such as long paid maternity leave harms women's wages and career progression. Have a look at: * The impact of Nordic countries’ family friendly policies on…

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15063449.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#360

Post by Bartweiss » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:46 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #337

bobcostas55 wrote: post #287

>and downplays the impact of obvious and unobjectionable steps like [..] "give expectant mothers maternity leave" This is a bit off-topic, but maternity leave is neither obvious nor unobjectionable. There is significant empirical evidence that shows that policies such as long paid maternity leave harms women's wages and career progression. Have a look at: * The impact of Nordic countries’ family friendly policies on…

No, there's no evidence that paid maternity leaves harm women's wages or career progression. Uniformly across the world, paid maternity leaves correlate strongly with more gender equality in the workforce, including in pay and career progression. In general, in countries with good parental leave policies, it is forbidden to discriminate against parents for taking them. The returning worker is entitled by law to retur…

> In general, in countries with good parental leave policies, it is forbidden to discriminate against parents for taking them. The returning worker is entitled by law to return at the place he/she would have been assuming he/she had worked continuously.

This assumes that the only form of discrimination happening is delaying raises and promotions during maternity leave. The articles linked aren't addressing that; they're about whether the expectation that women may take long paid leave encourages people to preferentially hire and promote men, who won't (be able to) take similar leave. This isn't explicit, actionable discrimination against returning mothers, it's a hard-to-prove worsening of the glass ceiling to save money on leave.

And no, that problem doesn't make maternity leave a bad thing, it means that we should craft policies carefully to avoid worsening discrimination. But I think it's reasonable to say that a policy isn't obviously desirable if common and well-regarded versions of it may worsen gender inequality.

At the very least, it's worth asking whether there are improvements which could be made to avoid that problem while getting comparable benefits, and in this case there probably are.