When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears • Hacker News Board

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#351

Post by em3rgent0rdr » Thu, Aug 03, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

oldboyFX wrote: post #162

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. "If women were 25% cheaper than men" That is not what the article said. 2. "women in general are more agreeable than men" ??? 3. "women tend to care about people while men care about things" ???

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/ "For example, women are often found to be more agreeable than men (Feingold, 1994; Costa et al., 2001). This means that women, on average, are more nurturing, tender-minded, and altruistic more often and to a greater extent than men."

I won't speak to the veracity of that...I have no scientific knowledge on that. I wonder if part of the solution involves women understanding that if you want to look out for your self interest, then you don't need to be agreeable all the time.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#352

Post by micahbright » Fri, Aug 04, 2017, 1:06 AM UTC

blei wrote: post #323

micahbright wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supported by research FYI http://judgybitch.com/2016/08/16/reblog-research-find-that-a...

Holy shit is that reblog of a blog post facetious. Have you looked at the original research cited? Curiously enough, that blog post doesn't bother to post the charts of the immensely high market income gap and consumption gap between men and women in New Zealand. Those wholely explain the tax gap, because well, men are earning and spending much more, 50%-75% more for most cohorts. As for the income support gap, the a…

There's actually a complete set of research showing that men as a group pay all taxes in the US and women as a group pay no taxes and receive all benefits. I've read it all before, I just couldn't find it.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

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Post by micahbright » Fri, Aug 04, 2017, 1:08 AM UTC

throwaway2229 wrote: post #318

micahbright wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel for you getting down-voted. Clearly a logical cogent reply.

Certain truths have to be told with a throwaway...

Hacker news is an absolute shithole full of liberal pinheads, with a few libertarians thrown in. It's amazing that you can be capable of programming and not be able to see the forest for the trees.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

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Post by lkbm » Fri, Aug 04, 2017, 3:49 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #290

lkbm wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? Here's another claim I've heard many times and never seen refuted (or even challenged): Tall men are paid more than short men (extending into non-physical work such as programming.) A company that recognizes this should hire a bunch of short programmers a…

The advantages of tall people (not just men) has been researched. The research doesn't confirm your assumptions very well. Part of the reason they get paid more is that they actually are smarter and healthier. Height correlates with good health and a well nutritioned childhood. More detail here: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/05/the-fin...

Neat, I'll check it out. Thanks for the link. Guess I need a new analogy. :-)

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

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Post by vikiomega9 » Fri, Aug 04, 2017, 5:48 AM UTC

sheepmullet wrote: post #273

rayiner wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Women tend to choose lower paying jobs, such as teacher, caregiver etc. In general women tend to care about people while men care about things (STEM). Again: biology or social construct Social construct. Look at Asian countries that by all accounts have less gender quality than the west but have more women science graduates. India is double the U.K. on that metric. The fact that Sweden has skewed representation…

> Social construct. Look at Asian countries that by all accounts have less gender quality than the west but have more women science graduates. India is double the U.K. on that metric. India has massive and pervasive poverty and tech especially is seen as a way out of poverty. Many programmers there earn 5x the average wage. Comparing that to the UK where programmers are not paid particularly well compared to other pr…

I don't know if it makes sense to cite India as an example given a rather large social preference for Tech and Engineering (and Medical Science) to begin with.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

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Post by brooklyn_ashey » Fri, Aug 04, 2017, 9:41 AM UTC

beaconstudios wrote: post #330

Quanttek wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Much of the discussion seems to place a blame squarely on employers, describing a cabal of shadowy prejudiced men in the board room ensuring someone gets 30% less or 30% more just because Nobody says that. It's the larger society, which also teaches black people and women to ask for less

it seems to me that if you spend all your time telling people they are oppressed, they'll believe you. There are certainly aspects of society that are unfair on women and racial minorities but hammering the idea of privilege and that as a person of group X you'll never be as successful as a white male you're just teaching people to accept and expect less.

I hear what you are saying. There have been tests on groups of student test takers:

group 1 is told they are talented and that the test is hard group 2 is told if they work hard they wil prevail

that was the gist, but I could be getting the wording wrong. The work-hard group did much better at the test than the talented group. I'm going from memory here and will try to find the test to post here. But don't you think it is valuable to prepare those who might have a tougher time with knowledge about how discrimination operates within our institutions that confer power for situations they may face and that certain strategies are better (based upon data from history) than others in understanding the basis of these? When one understands how the opposing army operates, one can create a more effective and hopefully victorious strategy. Especially if one is told that winning battle strategies productively use insider knowlege of one's opponents strengths and weknesses in an innovative and sustained counter-measure.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

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Post by brooklyn_ashey » Fri, Aug 04, 2017, 9:46 AM UTC

forapurpose wrote: post #242

ringaroundthetx wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HIRED has a report out which reveals demographics on what the employees themselves ask for, and what employers offered them. It reveals, as in a piece of data that wasn't typically part of the conversation, that some groups ask for less to begin with while the employer offers them more. But this 'more' amount is still less than employees that asked for more than that to begin with. The average of black candidates, an…

> The average of black candidates, and women candidates, simply asked for less than the average of white male candidates I agree that the phenomenon is much more complex than conspiratorial movie villains, and it's unproductive to simplify things that way (often out of anger). But I'll add some complexity to what you said: They would be wise to ask for less because that is what the market will bear, due to widespread…

Good point. And those who have been discriminated against internalize it. It is the water they have been swimming in their whole lives, so it takes a concerted effort from everyone to become more aware of how these biases operate if we wish to turn things in a more egalitarian direction.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

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Post by macintux » Fri, Aug 04, 2017, 12:04 PM UTC

anotherbrownguy wrote: post #344

macintux wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are significant societal costs when a group is undervalued. Young members of that group choose not to participate. Members of other groups decide to extend the discrimination in other ways.

OK, but why should a business care?

Businesses are not automata, independent of their environment. People own, run, and work for businesses; people care, or should, what the world will look like for the next generation.

This notion that businesses exist solely for a short-term profit for their shareholders is patently destructive.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

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Post by rhizome » Fri, Aug 04, 2017, 4:51 PM UTC

OJFord wrote: post #329

rhizome wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either I don't understand or I disagree. GP's point was not that a true capitalist would reduce the overall compensation.

The point GGP is making is that the difference does exist, but wouldn't if the same job was being done; therefore it is not.

Their point is that women wouldn't be getting paid 25% less if they actually were as good as the men, that they aren't doing "the same job?" That's the only interpretation I can think of that supports the explanation.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

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Post by michaelbuddy » Mon, Aug 07, 2017, 3:58 AM UTC

sumeno wrote: post #127

michaelbuddy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"taught by society" feel free to source that in a way that can be proven. The assertion is just pseudo intellectual excuse making. Society is NOT telling women to NOT be sanitation workers. Society is not telling women not to work on offshore oil rigs. Society is not telling women not to be surgeons but to in fact be veterinarians. Society and "gender role" excuses don't hold up to reality. Time to accept that the wo…

I don't see how you can possibly claim that society doesn't discourage women from pursuing "manly" careers. By the same token men are discouraged from pursuing "feminine" careers. If a man says they are going to work on an offshore oil rig they are much less likely to get societal push back than a woman because it is seen as a normal thing for a man to do but not a woman. If a woman is an elementary school teacher it…

You're just saying words, you've got no examples of where rubber meets the road. Just that "men are looked down upon for being elementary school teachers" What? Where? And female oil rig workers get "societal pushback" Again just words. Where? How? You've got nothing here so far.

I mean if you want to talk about cultural influence there's way more news articles celebrating women doing various things, celebrating women entrepreneurs, women soldiers, women and minority events and special recognition or conferences.

Read all the stories about sexual harassment? Anecdotally I've seen just as much sexual language coming from women in IT as men in terms of workers. Project mgrs, network admins, probably a few more. And those instances were miniscule and didn't make up anywhere near a day to day problem for people.

I have seen instances where a guy who was being a dick treated women poorly. He got a talking to and cut that out. I've seen women take their day out on men and women and never got any kind of talking to. It's really funny you're pointing to some sort of dysfunction and not demonstrating or sourcing anything but "all those stories"