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Nevertheless, She Coded

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Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#351

Post by watwut »

msimpson wrote: post #327

I've handled the hiring of almost all Web developers within my company for the last half decade, and in that time I have hired absolutely zero women. Yet, this has nothing to do with discrimination and much more to do with the applicants themselves and the numbers by which they apply. During this time, I've seen Web design positions attract females applicants by about a two-thirds majority, whereas Web development po…

" the mathematics major (or similar) who feels their knowledge of topics only related to programming in general is satisfactory enough to hit the ground running as a Web developer of all things"

All companies I worked for routinely hired guys like that assuming they will learn on the job. Most did, some did not. In any case, many professional programmers I see studied mathematics, physics or something similar and then changed career.

Edited to add: it is possible that your company can not afford a bit longer learning curve in the beginning. Did not wanted to make it sound like I am accusing you.

I actually thought that big difference between men and women is that men assume they can do tech by default, apply for jobs even as they have minimum qualification or experience and it oftentimes works out.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#352

Post by niggerdeath »

phlakaton wrote: post #104

If ever I had a notion that an expression of solidarity for women in tech was unnecessary or quixotic, the response to this article on this very forum would be sufficient to dispel it.

ladies, if you need to cry about the wage gap or something and you're not on your period, my messages are open ;)

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#353

Post by walshemj »

magic_beans wrote: post #344
tomlock wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She never attended University. Do you think she just wasn't interested in attending?

Women weren't exactly welcomed into universities in the 19th century, even the geniuses.

they where explicitly barred until relatively recently

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#354

Post by tptacek »

dang wrote: post #89
Pigo wrote: post #40

I think Ellen Pao is a prime example of why it's a liability to pretend you're working at Sterling Cooper. There are shrews out there with lawyers on their speed-dial, and they will pull the trigger even if they have no ammunition.

This is the sort of uncivil slur we ban people for, as well as a personal attack, which we also ban people for. Please don't comment like this here again. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13821899 and marked it off-topic.

It's also just bad writing. What happens when you pull a trigger without any ammunition? Nothing.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#355

Post by msimpson »

watwut wrote: post #351
msimpson wrote: post #327

I've handled the hiring of almost all Web developers within my company for the last half decade, and in that time I have hired absolutely zero women. Yet, this has nothing to do with discrimination and much more to do with the applicants themselves and the numbers by which they apply. During this time, I've seen Web design positions attract females applicants by about a two-thirds majority, whereas Web development po…

" the mathematics major (or similar) who feels their knowledge of topics only related to programming in general is satisfactory enough to hit the ground running as a Web developer of all things" All companies I worked for routinely hired guys like that assuming they will learn on the job. Most did, some did not. In any case, many professional programmers I see studied mathematics, physics or something similar and the…

> it is possible that your company can not afford a bit longer learning curve in the beginning.

That is exactly my point and what I would have replied, otherwise. I just cannot spend that level of non-billable time teaching.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#356

Post by sheepmullet »

ajross wrote: post #348
sheepmullet wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which I don't see the value of, honestly, given that tech workers are near-uniformly salaried in this country You can't see how working extra hours can increase productivity enough to warrant a small increase in pay?

I don't see how a number cribbed from a comparison of "work day length" (NOT total hours worked!) across the entire US workforce (and thus not correcting for the fact that women and men have different career statistics) says anything about whether women in the tech industry covered by this glassdoor study work more or less hours than their coworkers. What you did is go out through the whole world of statistics to fin…

I'm not saying the difference is explained by difference in hours worked. I'm saying it's a possible explanation.

You on the other hand are trying to draw conclusions that aren't backed by the data.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#357

Post by sanswork »

microcolonel wrote: post #326
sanswork wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually to prove otherwise you just need to find traditionally "male" roles that are no longer male dominated roles. Like teachers, lawyers, or doctors. All had centuries of being male jobs. Or find 'male' roles in some cultures that aren't in others like programming.

You assume that careers are immutable in terms of the work involved, and the returns for the employee, through the ages. I don't think that's true.

I picked 3 examples where it is true though. The exception being teaching in the US specifically pays awfully but it pays pretty well/has good benefits in other western countries.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#358

Post by sheepmullet »

KirinDave wrote: post #331
sheepmullet wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The women surveyed could have worked more hours than the men. But by not controlling for it you reduce the studies explanative powers. You don't get to just ignore it because it is convenient. It doesn't even pass the "more likely than not" standard of evidence.

Right, but uh... The vast majority of positions Glassdoor cares about are salaried positions which don't track hours. They're exempt from overtime, as well. It also seems to me that that signal would show up weakly in the data because it wouldn't vary the immediate effect on apples-to-apples salary, only on promotions and possibly referrals. So I think your complaint is specious and the inclusion of a totally unrelat…

> The vast majority of positions Glassdoor cares about are salaried positions which don't track hours

Yes. And this makes any kind of data analysis a lot harder.

On paper I work the same number of hours as my Japanese coworkers. In reality they work more than double.

It's the same way on-call for many companies is just rolled into salary.

I've managed projects as a senior dev while the senior dev sitting next to me was purely technical. Etc etc.

The truth is two senior devs sitting right next to each other can have wildly different actual job duties.

I suspect glassdoor has taken at least some of those differences in work duties vs stated title into account.

> because it wouldn't vary the immediate effect on apples-to-apples salary,

Why wouldn't it?

Its not uncommon to stay at a certain level/title for 3-5 years.

You can't just ignore hours worked because "salary".

I come from a strong union background where you would get overtime or be able to take the time off later and where there were fairly rigid job duties. Where interviews and scoring candidates is all done in a very standardised fashion.

And oddly enough after adjusting for these explicit factors we had a very small unexplained gender pay gap. Much smaller than average for the tech industry.

Perhaps it's in our interest to make these factors explicit rather than implicit?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#359

Post by ajross »

sheepmullet wrote: post #356
ajross wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how a number cribbed from a comparison of "work day length" (NOT total hours worked!) across the entire US workforce (and thus not correcting for the fact that women and men have different career statistics) says anything about whether women in the tech industry covered by this glassdoor study work more or less hours than their coworkers. What you did is go out through the whole world of statistics to fin…

I'm not saying the difference is explained by difference in hours worked. I'm saying it's a possible explanation. You on the other hand are trying to draw conclusions that aren't backed by the data.

What? That's 100% up-is-downism. What you say is simply incorrect. The conclusions is backed by data. The data is in the link. Go look at it. See? Glass Door says women are underpaid. That's data!

What you are doing is saying "No, I don't think the conclusion should be what the data says", and then you're going out and finding ("cherry picking") different data about related but not identical subjects that appears to contradict it.

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on you if you want to make a numeric argument here. And you're doing it with extraordinarily bad analysis.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#360

Post by [deleted] »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #273
throwaway91111 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I am not accepting that margin; I'm simply regrettably far from my spreadsheet for 2015 to which I can refer. My objections are a) the assumption "life choice" is NOT a sexist dog whistle, that b) you're talking about aggregate wage gap, which reduces the situation into a single statistic, and c) that a sex linked difference isn't worth addressing even if it does have a dominating effect in today's econo…

I object to the contention that there arent biology correlated preferences and differences (such as attribute variance) which will cause biases in the distribution of labor and aptitude, which likely will always cause some form of imbalance in statistics. I also object to the notiom that we want equal outcomes rather than equal opportunity (even though that is harder to measure). That being said, I think we should ge…

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