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I am an Uber survivor

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Re: I am an Uber survivor

#351

Post by Arizhel »

TorKlingberg wrote: post #335
Arizhel wrote: post #290

>Besides, men outnumber women in tech by a very large margin. It's on our shoulders to help women fight back. Strength in numbers is a thing, and having men who speak up on their own, and who support and reinforce women who come forward can only a be a good thing. Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves. Tech is no longer the…

I really don't think misogyny or harassment is connected to nerdy-ness or introversion/extroversion, in either direction. The methods probably very, but I don't think any personality type is free of the proverbial bad eggs.

>I really don't think misogyny or harassment is connected to nerdy-ness or introversion/extroversion, in either direction.

I completely disagree. Stereotypically nerdy, shy, introverted men are not going to be extremely aggressive towards women in social settings; that's why they stereotypically have such a hard time getting dates: they're not even comfortable talking to women. They're certainly not going to be touching them inappropriately, making sexual comments and innuendo, etc. The men that stereotypically do that are like the guys who join frats in college and spend a lot of time in drunken parties. These are not introverts, they're extroverts. These stories about Uber and other such places are not talking about quiet male programmers occasionally talking about something inappropriate at work (like anime porn or something) and being overheard by women, these stories are about managers (and executives) doing grossly inappropriate and harassing things directly to women, usually women they supervise. Shy, nerdy men do not become "high performing" managers (the kind the CEO loves to go drinking with); that's clearly the domain of extroverts.

And yes, every personality type has bad eggs, as there's exceptions for everything, but I'm talking in generalities here.

But also importantly, it's my contention that even the rank-and-file engineers and programmers these days are more like the frat-bro stereotype, so they're not going to be any help, they're part of the problem and why this company culture thrives in Silicon Valley these days.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#352

Post by rodgerd »

Arizhel wrote: post #278
uptownfunk wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I've watched too much Suits and The Good Wife, but it just seems that it's all futile. They're a huge corp, if you file suit against them they'll hit back harder with bigger and badder lawyers, and you either settle out of court, or play the lotto with the court system and try your hand at a judgement with whatever lawyers you can afford. It's really sad how stacked the odds seem.

Why is this being modded down? It's the truth. Big companies almost always come out on top in trials because they can afford the best lawyers, and they can afford to game the system to bankrupt their opponents by filing never-ending motions to delay and other tactics which increase the legal costs to the opponent. You're almost never going to get a positive result if you're a rank-and-file employee; your best course…

It's not just the best lawyers. Uber have already started contacting anyone who knows Susan Fowler, digging for dirt on her.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#353

Post by losteverything »

jastingo wrote: post #257

I'm not in the business of defending Uber - quite the contrary - but reading through the comments it seems that most people are assuming that this post by an anonymous person is 100% true. These types of posts are worrying to me. Why could this post not have been crafted by someone at Lyft? Or one of Uber's many other detractors? Given the PR nightmare that Uber is in why not pile on while the public seems primed for…

Although I agree, my training informs me that there is quite a history of doubting reports made by women. From rape to domestic violence.

As a bystander I don't even want to say out loud what you did, even though it crossed my mind.

Women have historically been ignored when reporting.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#354

Post by diebir »

Without getting into any details this: "Once in a group chat, team members referred to a new Asian American recruit as slanty eye joe" seems very strange to me. The Uber tech org is like 80%+ foreign born, this makes pretty much zero sense. Disclaimer: I work for Uber.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#355

Post by matthewmacleod »

Arizhel wrote: post #290

>Besides, men outnumber women in tech by a very large margin. It's on our shoulders to help women fight back. Strength in numbers is a thing, and having men who speak up on their own, and who support and reinforce women who come forward can only a be a good thing. Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves. Tech is no longer the…

Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves.

Citation needed. I haven't yet, in a decade in the tech industry, worked with anybody who would act in this way, to the best of my knowledge.

That said, I work in London and not SV, so I can't say if the culture is different. I know for a fact that it wouldn't be tolerated for a second anywhere I've worked.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#356

Post by spraak »

selectodude wrote: post #279
leggomylibro wrote: post #132

>Travis is well known to protect high performing team leaders no matter how abusive they are towards their employees. The HR team was known to be deftly[sic] afraid of Travis’s tendency to blame and ridicule the women and yell at HR whenever they went in with complaints of abuse. I heard about Travis personally congratulating Mike#2 for meeting strict deadlines months after I complained to HR about my abuse. This is…

>"Great, retain a Chicago politician so you know you'll get the answer you're paying for." Normally I don't care, but because I'm from Chicago and am officially very touchy about all the abuse the city catches, I'd like to correct the record as Eric Holder is from New York.

It sounds like they're using 'Chicago politician' as a character description (valid or not). Similar to how people might use Nazi (e.g. Grammar Nazi, or "You're such a Nazi!") etc.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#357

Post by 67726e »

gtirloni wrote: post #281
asymmetric wrote: post #247

This is terrible, and one more reason to despise Uber, but I find the usage of the word "survivor" out of place in this context, at least in my understanding of its meaning. I know this is not the main point to take home from this situation, and I also know I'll be attacked from making it, but I felt it was important nonetheless.

Her usage of "survivor" is appropriate both in terms of being alive (i.e. not committing suicide after traumatic experience) and being whole as a human being (i.e. having healed enough to function in society). There are countless studies linking sexual harassment and intimidation to suicides, just look it up.

> just look it up.

How about citing a source if you make a claim?

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#358

Post by cyberpunk »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #332
cyberpunk wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be the motivation behind creating a 'false' rhetoric such as the experiences of women in tech? I've certainly seen this happening / had to deal with it, I do feel that this is still an issue and something we need to improve. While it's not an across the board problem, I suspect most women working in tech would agree with me; the story, which I don't stand behind as as legitimate, is very similar to the sor…

I don't know the motivation. Perhaps someone feels harassment is a real problem, but can't find any real examples of it, so feels the need to tell lies for a good cause? Perhaps someone merely wants to harm Uber? They certainly have no shortage of people who hate them. But regardless of motivation, the facts show that many people are willing to fake stories just to support their "team". Sometimes they do this at grea…

Sure; I can't fault any of that. Even if this was a link to a chapter of a fictional book though, I'd be saying the same thing.

I don't accept this as truth, I assume it's fiction as no one is standing behind it. My only point was, that in general, none of us are terribly shocked by stories such as these, and that's what I wanted to talk about.

I really do hope that less of this goes on than is reported, I sadly feel that the opposite is true -- and that's from personal experiences not unverifiable stories on the internetz.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#359

Post by Arizhel »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #355
Arizhel wrote: post #290

>Besides, men outnumber women in tech by a very large margin. It's on our shoulders to help women fight back. Strength in numbers is a thing, and having men who speak up on their own, and who support and reinforce women who come forward can only a be a good thing. Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves. Tech is no longer the…

Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves. Citation needed. I haven't yet, in a decade in the tech industry, worked with anybody who would act in this way, to the best of my knowledge. That said, I work in London and not SV, so I can't say if the culture is different. I know for a fact that it wouldn't be tolerated for a second…

>That said, I work in London and not SV, so I can't say if the culture is different.

Yeah, that's your problem right there. I probably should have specified that this is largely a SV/USA problem. The work culture in the UK is very different from over here. Even here in the US, it's rather different by region; I don't think it's remotely as bad on the east coast.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#360

Post by grandalf »

I think the bottom line is that some founders believe that you have to tolerate abusive personalities in order to hire the best.

I had a person on my team once who I did not hire but who had a reputation for being one of the smartest and most capable engineers. As his new manager, I expected that I'd soon promote him. But then I saw that he treated others on the team very poorly and often said highly inappropriate sexual things.

I talked to the founder and was told that he's really a great guy, etc. As it got worse I mentioned the pattern to HR, and HR was initially concerned, but then after HR met with the founder it was as if I was imagining the problem.

I tell this story simply to point out that the same culture that tolerates bullies and harassment can happen even when there is a female founder.

I know it's a cliche that bullies are always deeply insecure. I think that is the case for workplace bullies too. The brash, over-confident, aggressive act that these people put on works to help them find out who they can victimize.

Others who interact less closely often perceive people (particularly engineers) who have a brash, confident attitude as being smart and capable. Just because someone quickly points the finger and shoots down other peoples' ideas doesn't mean his/her ideas are smart :)

I don't think bullies can thrive in a healthy workplace culture. There should not be any question that certain behavior is inappropriate and is grounds for a stern warning (or worse). But once this doesn't happen, a sort of law of the jungle emerges and bullies and exploiters can take over.

The more information that comes out about Uber's culture, I think Travis probably needs to go.

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