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Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

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Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#351

Post by mikeash »

SilasX wrote: post #323
mikeash wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to pay them better and forbid them from taking tips. Make it clear to customers that it's not even allowed, let alone expected. Unfortunately, I don't think tipping culture is going away any time soon.

>The solution is to pay them better and forbid them from taking tips. Make it clear to customers that it's not even allowed, let alone expected. That's basically what Uber did (except for "you have to refuse once"). They tried to make it a tip-not-required zone and make everyone understand this going in. And yet still, you hear the refrain, "What, I'm basically a cabbie. Don't you tip cabbies? Shouldn't I be getting…

I imagine the "contractor" status of Uber drivers gets in the way. If they'd bite the bullet and hire drivers as proper employees, a prohibition on taking tips might stick.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#352

Post by dang »

MegaButts wrote: post #337
dang wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you sound like a shill This isn't allowed here, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't do it again.

> The market is very big and it's a basic need that most people have. > With Instacart, the value add is such a no brainer. > All these are obvious next steps for Instacart, which wisely sees Grocery stores as a relic of the past ready to be replaced by something better. > Instacart has found a better way. > It all arrives as if by magic. I should have cited my evidence, but that seems excessively positive to me. I w…

Right, to go from "seems excessively positive to me" (you put that very well) to astroturfing/shillage is an enormous non sequitur that is easy to fall into on the internet. It's corrosive of civil discourse, so we don't allow it on HN.

Actual astroturfing or shillage is of course not allowed either, but that's almost an entirely separate problem from people slinging accusations around over-easily.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#353

Post by kasey_junk »

TheOneTrueKyle wrote: post #350
harryh wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You live in a part of the US where waiters don't typically receive tips from the vast majority of patrons?

Of course people do. It's more your reaction to it. Like you are financially invested in people who don't make food but people who bring food a couple feet to the left. So have you ever tipped a chef?

A note: it's usually against labor laws in the USA for the back of house to be tipped employees or to be apart of a tip pool.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#354

Post by MegaButts »

dang wrote: post #352
MegaButts wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The market is very big and it's a basic need that most people have. > With Instacart, the value add is such a no brainer. > All these are obvious next steps for Instacart, which wisely sees Grocery stores as a relic of the past ready to be replaced by something better. > Instacart has found a better way. > It all arrives as if by magic. I should have cited my evidence, but that seems excessively positive to me. I w…

Right, to go from "seems excessively positive to me" (you put that very well) to astroturfing/shillage is an enormous non sequitur that is easy to fall into on the internet. It's corrosive of civil discourse, so we don't allow it on HN. Actual astroturfing or shillage is of course not allowed either, but that's almost an entirely separate problem from people slinging accusations around over-easily.

Fair enough.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#355

Post by b3lvedere »

Chris2048 wrote: post #304
b3lvedere wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is the problem in the first place. Why are we taught by people to tip some personell and not to tip others? Because the first group has a very low income. That's why. Because corporations cannot be trusted to treat their people nicely. That's why. Because the first group usually works hard and shows effort, while the others don't. That's why. I don't mind to tip when someone has done an excellent service, but i…

> Because the first group has a very low income That's the incentive to work hard so that you are not part of that group. That group doesn't have much to offer, and often didn't work hard to offer anything society valued. I knew, from an early age, that the consequence of not trying at school was ending up in a dead-end job. > Because the first group usually works hard and shows effort, while the others don't Citatio…

>That's the incentive to work hard so that you are not part of that group.

It's an incentive, but not the solution. It's way way more complex than a "just work hard and everything will be ok" stigma.

>Some have the deck stacked against them, fair enough,

Over 80% of the world population lives in poverty. I don't know what kind of decks are dealt, but casinos would be purchasing these decks by the millions.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#356

Post by b3lvedere »

eridius wrote: post #308
b3lvedere wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is the problem in the first place. Why are we taught by people to tip some personell and not to tip others? Because the first group has a very low income. That's why. Because corporations cannot be trusted to treat their people nicely. That's why. Because the first group usually works hard and shows effort, while the others don't. That's why. I don't mind to tip when someone has done an excellent service, but i…

> and not some weird strange thing like a jar or a fund the corporation came up with. BTW, if a company puts out a tip jar, by law that tip jar must actually go to the employees. The company cannot come along and take the contents of the jar for itself (and if they try, employees can sue them).

What if they cannot afford or are afraid to sue?

These people depend very heavily on having an income/job.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#357

Post by Chris2048 »

b3lvedere wrote: post #355
Chris2048 wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the first group has a very low income That's the incentive to work hard so that you are not part of that group. That group doesn't have much to offer, and often didn't work hard to offer anything society valued. I knew, from an early age, that the consequence of not trying at school was ending up in a dead-end job. > Because the first group usually works hard and shows effort, while the others don't Citatio…

>That's the incentive to work hard so that you are not part of that group. It's an incentive, but not the solution. It's way way more complex than a "just work hard and everything will be ok" stigma. >Some have the deck stacked against them, fair enough, Over 80% of the world population lives in poverty. I don't know what kind of decks are dealt, but casinos would be purchasing these decks by the millions.

> "just work hard and everything will be ok" stigma

That's not a stigma, it's an ideal. There is no better solution.

> Over 80% of the world population

I was talking about capitalist america, not the world.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#358

Post by b3lvedere »

Chris2048 wrote: post #357
b3lvedere wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's the incentive to work hard so that you are not part of that group. It's an incentive, but not the solution. It's way way more complex than a "just work hard and everything will be ok" stigma. >Some have the deck stacked against them, fair enough, Over 80% of the world population lives in poverty. I don't know what kind of decks are dealt, but casinos would be purchasing these decks by the millions.

> "just work hard and everything will be ok" stigma That's not a stigma, it's an ideal. There is no better solution. > Over 80% of the world population I was talking about capitalist america, not the world.

Fair enough. How many americans live in poverty?

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#359

Post by Chris2048 »

b3lvedere wrote: post #358
Chris2048 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "just work hard and everything will be ok" stigma That's not a stigma, it's an ideal. There is no better solution. > Over 80% of the world population I was talking about capitalist america, not the world.

Fair enough. How many americans live in poverty?

Depends what measure and definition you use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#360

Post by vinceguidry »

RyanZAG wrote: post #333
vinceguidry wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reassessing historical narratives you grew up with has that effect. I'm coming to find out that nothing is as it was taught. The information you gain today should be prioritized over the information you learned yesterday, just because it comes from a better and more informed perspective. I've been spending lots of time on Quora, I eventually learned that not a single way of thinking about events I had when I was youn…

Definitely, but that doesn't change the simple logic that if you have a conclusion, it's very easy to lose the truth of a historical situation by instead selecting an explanation that you want. Let's say there is a historical event, and you know of 3 different possible explanations. Explanation 1 is what you learned as a child and it's clearly wrong now because of new evidence. Explanation 2 and 3 both fit all known…

> Do you really have to?

Think about it. You have an understanding of history. You can't not have an understanding of history, unless you live under a rock. As you study history more and more, you realize that all of your prior understandings of history are wrong.

What do you do then? You don't have a past anymore. The only thing that's making sense is the present. So you re-examine the past in light of the present. That's reifying. It's your only option. You're reifying today, you're going to reify again tomorrow. Because the thing doing the understanding is changing every day, so you need new understandings. You're not building, you're constantly demolishing.

Logic is only as good as your premises. If your premises can't be trusted, you need to go back to the drawing board.

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