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Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

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Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#351

Post by mindcrime »

seppin wrote: post #346
mindcrime wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

since NATO/UN/Pax Americana there has been less war than any other time in recorded history. So is that the benchmark then? Just "lowest in history"? How much lower can we get in absolute terms? I think we can do much better. And you, as well as countless others in MAGA hats are celebrating it's downfall. Not sure if you're somehow thinking that I'm one of those MAGA people or not, but if so, believe me, nothing coul…

> I think we can do much better. I think things could be a lot worse. I have history and data to back me up, where does your opinion come from?

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Saying "things could be worse" is just trivially true.

As for where my position comes from: mostly logic / inference / reasoning, however you want to describe it. And a bit of history and data. See, for example:

https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/matthew-o-jackson-can-...

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#352

Post by macintux »

idiot_stick wrote: post #91
knz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US and all of its allies are still allies. This may be true but the actions of the Trump administration have many allies questioning how reliable the US is. That's not "stirring the pot" - it's potentially a significant shift in the world order and a decrease in how effective our foreign relations are. The public allegations and concern expressed by our allies and own intelligence agencies should give everyone…

> the actions of the Trump administration have many allies questioning how reliable the US is. Thankfully the real decision makers aren't going to toss away decades of political good-will and foreign relations because of 3 weeks of blowhard political posturing.

s/3 weeks/1.5 years/

Trump has been making it clear for a long time that he doesn't care about following the rules. He may not have a firm grip on reality, but he's consistently prioritized short-term interests of his view of America over long-term global stability.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#353

Post by rrggrr »

seppin wrote: post #313
rrggrr wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because now that he is President the Constitution and Congress are his source of power. There's nothing his money can buy him right now that trumps the power of the office and the Congress.

I'll try again: How is Trump not a plutocrat riding populist anger into power to enrich himself and his friends?

You are arguing that Trump is a kleptocrat, not a plutocrat. A plutocrat derives power from wealth. A kleptocrat uses power to create or enrich her wealth. So, for example, HRC used her power as Secretary of State to enrich her wealth. She is Kleptocrat. WJC used wealth to wield power in Haiti and elsewhere. He is a plutocrat. We don't yet know what Trump is because he hasn't actually done anything and its seriously questionable if he ever will. On the other hand, he prevented a Kleptocratic/Plutocratic duo from running America, so he could retire on top today and it would be for the best.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#354

Post by lispm »

juki wrote: post #212
lispm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A next field of conflict is Belarus, which tries to distance itself from Russia. It's not NATO, it's not a country with a security guarantee like the Ukraine ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit... ) , it's not trying to connect itself to the EU (like the Ukraine), but still it could be a next conflict. Then there are European countries not in NATO, but cooperating with NATO, like Sweden and…

Sweden doesn't have a border with Russia. Also, as a Finn, I highly doubt Russia would attack Finland. We have a relatively good relationship with them, and such a war would be very costly with nothing to be gained. If there was a larger conflict in Europe, Russia might try to invade Åland or Gotland, but that also sounds unlikely to happen.

> Sweden doesn't have a border with Russia.

Right. Not direct, but Kaliningrad is just 300km across the baltic sea. Stockholm to Kaliningrad is 500km across the baltic sea.

> We have a relatively good relationship with them, and such a war would be very costly with nothing to be gained.

There are many ways to influence a country.

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201702101050541682-finland-ru...

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#355

Post by lispm »

markhahn wrote: post #234
lispm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A next field of conflict is Belarus, which tries to distance itself from Russia. It's not NATO, it's not a country with a security guarantee like the Ukraine ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit... ) , it's not trying to connect itself to the EU (like the Ukraine), but still it could be a next conflict. Then there are European countries not in NATO, but cooperating with NATO, like Sweden and…

Belarus, really!?! They look like a fragment of the USSR that simply hasn't gotten the message yet. Where's the burgeoning democratic movement, where's the economic modernization?

http://observer.com/2017/02/belarus-national-security-nato-v...

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#356

Post by macintux »

emodendroket wrote: post #48
bad_user wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging by how Trump is behaving, there are two more possibilities: (1) no strategy is involved at all, populists being known to do that, either because of incompetence or because stirring the pot gives the illusion of progress (it's after all why he was voted), or (2) his strategy is aligned with his businesses, which is not that far fetched, given how he hasn't banned immigrants from Muslim countries in which he ha…

The countries he banned also all happen to have had historically antipathetic relations with the US. It's hard to tease out one thing from the other; it would have been illegal for Trump to pursue business in Iran. I think ultimately Trump's foreign policy is going to end up extremely military-directed and won't be that much of a radical departure from what we've seen recently (not that that is necessarily good).

A large part of the established world order, for better or worse, is based on the predictability of US foreign policy.

Until it's clear that Trump is going to honor our existing agreements, continue to push for freedom of the seas, etc, that world order is going to start evolving into something different.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#357

Post by PerfectDlite »

konstmonst wrote: post #151
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You really think a NATO ally can be hit No, but the odds don't look as daunting as they used to. It's certainly more bargainable than it ever was. In any case, only the Baltics in my last comment are NATO allies. Lots of American interests aren't covered by Article 5. > I have to respectfully disagree My point isn't that confrontation is likely. It's that disrespectful disagreement of the status quo is more likely…

What happened in Crimea? What about a referendum? How is it worse than US annexation of Hawai? As a matter of fact, Crimea was part of Russia since it was taken from Crimean Khanate in the 18th century. I also don't have any emphaty for the treatment of Tatar Culture because it was a culture of pillaging their neigbours and economy based on slaves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars https://en.wikipedia.org…

> What happened in Crimea? What about a referendum?

Referendum was held _after_ invasion and with numerous violations of international laws.

> How is it worse than US annexation of Hawai?

How's your whataboutism?

> As a matter of fact, Crimea was part of Russia since it was taken from Crimean Khanate in the 18th century.

Russia (as per se) exists only since 1991.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#358

Post by PerfectDlite »

vondur wrote: post #331
rebolek wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a nonsense. No one pushed NATO onto borders of Russia. Russian neighbors joined NATO because they have bad experience with Russia, that's all.

Apparently, we assured the Russians that NATO would not expand east. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nato-s-eastward-ex...

Apparently, we are not - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/24/russia...

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#359

Post by PerfectDlite »

tiatia wrote: post #40
Scarblac wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is the Soviet Union's continuation, and it still has a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons and is currently fighting in and occupying a European country. The threat isn't gone at all.

"is currently fighting in and occupying a European country." If Russia were fighting Ukraine, the war would be over in 1 week.

Do you see the difference between "fighting in" and "fighting"?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#360

Post by PerfectDlite »

pabloski wrote: post #98
alextheparrot wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sort of. Russia needed to annex Crimea prior to the Ukraine joining NATO, which was becoming more possible after the revolution in Ukraine. Russia didn't need to act prior because it isn't threatened if the Ukraine isn't looking towards joining NATO. Crimea is hugely important to Russia because of its port access, which is why Turkey is now becoming more important to Russia (If they have the Crimea ports, Turkey cont…

Revolution? It is called coup d'etat, whose only outcome has been the enrichment of oligarchs and the utter destruction of the ukrainian national identity. Now Ukraine is a mix of foreign interests, polish born oligarchs, nazi battalions ( the so-called volunteers ). What is there in for the people? Famine, high prices for gas and electricity, the Ministry of Truth ( yes there is such a thing in the new shiny "democr…

That's a WHOLE lot of blatant Kremlin propaganda here.

Do you even read anything besides Russian news?

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