Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters • Hacker News Board

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#351

Post by notahacker » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:41 PM UTC

DominikR wrote: post #259

notahacker wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a Brit perspective (where we tend to have fewer referenda on bigger issues) the other downside appears the sheer, incredible nastiness of referendum campaigns when instead of campaigning to convince people they're a competent government, the campaign leaders (usually the same elites) are prepared to say literally anything to frighten people into voting a particular direction. Not to mention of course the first c…

> I'm not familiar with the Swiss situation but doubt the constitutional changes around minarets were fought over the merits of Islamic architecture or nuanced arguments about zoning. It is a misconception to believe that these are the only valid types of arguments against minarets. There are many that value their own culture and want to keep it that way without necessarily viewing other cultures as inferior.

I'm not sure how having [already legally silenced] minarets affects the culture of Swiss people that don't attend mosques in the slightest apart from its visual impact on the surrounding area. (I'm not sure minarets or lack thereof affects anyone's culture that much tbh)

Frankly I'd have thought enshrining the principle of intolerance of the symbols of a particular religion in the constitution represented a more substantive cultural change, but then I'm not Swiss.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#352

Post by rapind » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:42 PM UTC

soyiuz wrote: post #244

akerro wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on the opposite, I never understood how people can not own a house and waste money on renting for decades. Where market for houses in western countries is very limited due to stupid regulations and every year a few millions of people move to that country causing renting prices to increase by XX% each year. It decreases my financial stability. Losing a job for less than a month is a financial disaster, I still to…

Re: renting is wasting money. Think of the math this way. A $1mil condo in New York generates approximately 45k/yr income, or 4.5% return on investment per year in rents. Subtract taxes and amortization and ask yourself, can you get similar returns elsewhere? You could for example purchase an index fund with the same $1mil and contribute the gains towards rent. Either way you are living "for free." It is however risk…

In Canada you may also qualify for tax credits when buying a home. That combined with low rates creates house horniness that's hard to resist.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#353

Post by ryandrake » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:43 PM UTC

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #228

funkyy wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you can buy studio in the city and huge farm house with land 1 hour drive away... Then weekends spend in your farm house and weekdays in your studio... It would be close enough to pop in in week days also. 1 hour drive aint bad.

A two hour daily commute is like 12% of your waking hours crumpled and thrown away. That sounds like hell. Two hours is a long time! Sit around for the two hours doing nothing, you'll see.

I currently commute 2 hours each way. It's not as bad as it sounds. If you happen to be able to afford to live close to work, consider yourself lucky.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#354

Post by TelAviv_1 » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:44 PM UTC

The Swiss, while very progressive, live in a country where most people pay taxes. So the voters, who know where money comes from, soundly rejected this.

This may have a better chance of succeeding in the United States, where only 5% of people effectively pay any Federal Income Tax. After all, 95% of the population would love more "free money."

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#355

Post by bane » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:45 PM UTC

akerro wrote: post #143

enraged_camel wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why people believe/feel that buying land and/or a house is the pinnacle of... something. Sure, it gives the person a feeling of control and stability. But rooting oneself in one labor market (vs. being mobile) decreases one's employment options and therefore their salary. It's also very risky, as it's the equivalent of putting one's eggs in one basket and leaves their financial wellbeing in the…

And on the opposite, I never understood how people can not own a house and waste money on renting for decades. Where market for houses in western countries is very limited due to stupid regulations and every year a few millions of people move to that country causing renting prices to increase by XX% each year. It decreases my financial stability. Losing a job for less than a month is a financial disaster, I still to…

Here's the classic blog post on this topic

http://assayviaessay.blogspot.com/2014/04/rent-or-buy.html

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#356

Post by bane » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

_9MOTHER9HORSE wrote: post #270

etatoby wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very simple actually. Consider, for brevity, a mortgage where the monthly or yearly payment, including taxes, is equal to the rent you would be paying for the same place. Then live in the place and go about your life for several years, until the mortgage is paid for. Option 1, you took the mortgage. Now you own a house and you are not due any more payments. You can keep living there and use the excess income for…

You do incur a lot more costs as a property owner than as a renter, which you should bear in mind. Over the life of your average 20-25 year mortgage you should expect to have to replace numerous appliances, encounter a couple of catastrophic and unexpected issues (leaking roof, etc.), and after 10 years the decor will be outdated and shabby. To get optimum resale value you will have to sink a lot of time/money into r…

All of those costs are simply amortized over the rental agreement. I'm not sure why people who rent seem to think landlords are appliance/maintenance charities.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#357

Post by rwmj » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:50 PM UTC

soyiuz wrote: post #244

akerro wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on the opposite, I never understood how people can not own a house and waste money on renting for decades. Where market for houses in western countries is very limited due to stupid regulations and every year a few millions of people move to that country causing renting prices to increase by XX% each year. It decreases my financial stability. Losing a job for less than a month is a financial disaster, I still to…

Re: renting is wasting money. Think of the math this way. A $1mil condo in New York generates approximately 45k/yr income, or 4.5% return on investment per year in rents. Subtract taxes and amortization and ask yourself, can you get similar returns elsewhere? You could for example purchase an index fund with the same $1mil and contribute the gains towards rent. Either way you are living "for free." It is however risk…

Who's going to lend me $1m so I can play the stockmarket?

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#358

Post by eeeeeeeeeeeee » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:50 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #188

akerro wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also, the burden of being rooted, and of having to maintain a house, could be such a significant detraction to quality of life that it totally makes up the difference. Yea, so I'm renting a house where my agreement states that I am not allowed to fix or improve the flat myself. All changes must be agreed and made by agency. Current faults in the flat include: leaking water from toilet flush since seal is broken, rep…

>>Yea, so I'm renting a house where my agreement states that I am not allowed to fix or improve the flat myself. That's the beauty of renting: if you don't like your current agreement, you can find another place with more preferable terms. Plenty of landlords allow tenants to change/improve the property. Whereas when you buy a house, you are stuck with the same neighbors (and sometimes the same HOA) for a much longer…

True, but you leave out the cost and hassle of moving regularly. Most landlords know that people don't want to be relocating each year, so they can slowly increase rent year-over-year.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#359

Post by victorantos » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:53 PM UTC

s3nnyy wrote: post #37

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the…

Just dropped you an email. Thanks!

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#360

Post by Retric » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:53 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #350

Retric wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

300-500k seems really high for a farmhouse unless it comes with a lot of land.

Within weekend distance of NYC?

EX: http://mls.catskill4sale.com/idx/details/homes/b253/34760/4-... 200k, 10br house ~2h from NYC depending on traffic. Basically as soon as you step past reasonable daily commutes prices really fall.