My positive experience as a woman in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#351

Post by chongli » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 5:45 PM UTC

alashley wrote: post #286

kaitai wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to say, I've met a number of socially awkward guys who flirt in a cute way, and a number of socially smooth guys who are super creepy. And some people are creepy on purpose -- negging, pushing boundaries, looking for the weak one in the herd or the woman who can't say no because of her own internal algorithms. They are often not socially awkward, either. I think Captain Awkward and Dr. Nerdlove have done some…

I get the sentiment of the thoughtcatalog link you posted, but aren't those exchanges either an extension of people taking advantage of either the relative anonymity provided by the internet/social media or private text conversations where no one else will likely ever read the messages? I have never seen a guy get turned down by a woman in the real world and disparage her in such a way. Not at the bar, not anywhere e…

I have never seen a guy get turned down by a woman in the real world

You may not have, but it happens. I have read support threads where women talk about being punched in the face for rejecting a guy in a bar. I'm sure if you talk to a bouncer at any popular nightclub they'll give you loads of stories of women being assaulted by creepy dudes.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#352

Post by tptacek » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 5:51 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #24

adrianN wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not convinced that the lack of women in tech is due to sexism. Maybe women just aren't as excited by the field as men? Nobody seems to question that this is the reason why there are so few male preschool teachers.

There are so few male preschool teachers because our society is very sexist against men when it comes to interacting with kids. This is societal and not innate because in many other countries male teachers are the norm.

Are we really sexist against male teachers? I don't buy it. There are male teachers everywhere at all levels in Chicago, and male teachers are routinely represented in the media, usually positively.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#353

Post by chongli » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 5:56 PM UTC

JDiculous wrote: post #246

zeveb wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". > If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". In my experience, the exact same thing is true with the sexes switched: behaviour which I find attractive in a woman I find attractive is awful in a woman I don't find attractive. I think this is probably a…

I disagree. Most men if approached by an awkward unattractive woman at a bar will at least be polite and have a normal conversation even if they're not interested. Whereas women will often outright ignore or even act hostile towards an awkward unattractive man trying to strike a conversation. Men are expected to treat women courteously, whereas women aren't held to the same standard. A woman can treat a man like a di…

Most men if approached by an awkward unattractive woman

No, it's just that the distributions for attractiveness are different between women[0] and men[1]. Women rate 80% of guys as worse-looking than "medium attractiveness". Men, on the other hand, rate women on a much more normalized curve.

[0]. http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/your_looks_and_inbox/Male-Messagi...

[1]. http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/your_looks_and_inbox/Female-Messa...

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#354

Post by pdex » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 6:14 PM UTC

Joeboy wrote: post #199

DanBC wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of men really really don't want to be treated like that either.

also lots of women seem pretty comfortable in blokeish social settings.

There's lot of women who are more comfortable socializing with men and have hobbies or think about topics that might have once been considered "tom-boyish" that aren't considered so now (thankfully) and they can find a lot of common ground to converse with men.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#355

Post by PhasmaFelis » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 6:16 PM UTC

dikdik wrote: post #267

userium wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on discussions we have had with women in tech at https://keepwomen.com , it's not just sexism, but many women leave tech due to working conditions (low salary, no advancement), work-life balance (too much travelling, commuting), or the company environment (poor cultural "fit"). Some solutions for retaining women in tech are e.g. flexible working hours, personal development opportunities and workforce diversity.

I was just having a conversation with my roommate about why I have trouble identifying/believing a lot of feminist propaganda. And your statement is exactly why. Even when it is not a gender issue, femnism seems to only focus on improving female standing. That's not equality.

This seems like seeing someone trying to stop genocide in the Congo, and yelling at them because they're not simultaneously trying to stop street violence in Brazil.

There are a lot of problems, they have varying magnitudes, and some people choose to focus on a particular problem. That's okay. It's frustrating how often it seems like feminists are expected to solve every problem in the world simultaneously to legitimize their attempts to solve one problem.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#356

Post by swombat » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

aaronem wrote: post #70

swombat wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't she be treated as both simultaneously? Why does treatment as an "engineer" require the abolition of her "lady" role? Are the two roles not compatible? I personally thing it is more sexist to try and deny gender differences than simply recognise them and deal with people respectfully. I find the implication that the only way to not be sexist is to treat everyone as gender neutral disturbing.

Apparently the two roles aren't perceived as compatible by whoever felt the need to apologize to a fellow engineer for saying something that no engineer would be upset to hear, or for that matter at all unlikely to say. If he has to choose, as apparently he does, between thinking of her as an engineer and thinking of her as a lady, then I'd suggest that the role she's earned should trump the one to which she was born…

I don't see that "likes to swear or have people swear nearby" is an essential or generally accepted component of the role of "engineer".

Your statement is actually extremely sexist, I'm not sure if you realise that. "The role she's earned should trump the one to which she was born" - so being a "lady" is somehow an "inferior role" that can be trumped by the superior, earned role of "being an engineer"?

It really doesn't seem that hard to me. A person can be all sorts of genders and various fluid things in between male and female, and you accept that and treat them as such - with respect for all those roles, without assuming one to be superior to the other. On top of that, they might take on a bunch of other roles. Those roles don't obliterate the nature of who they are. "I'm no longer a woman, I'm now an engineer" implies that the two roles are exclusionary, that one is superior, to the other, etc.

How about: "I'm a woman and I'm an engineer. They're both part of my identity."

Caveat: I live in the UK. We don't have quite the levels of rampant sexism y'all seem to have in the states (or at least I haven't observed it). Or racism, for that matter. Seems a bit more civilised over here, based on the stories I read about the US. People are people. They're black, white, rainbow-striped, whatever. They're people and people are awesome and worthy of all the love in the universe, whatever their gender, skin colour, profession, etc.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#357

Post by pdex » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 6:42 PM UTC

sonabinu wrote: post #55

There are definitely good experiences. I think the problem is when management pretends they did not hear something. I remember another female colleague (absent at the meeting) being referred to as a 'chick' and the other men laughing it off. It was a very bad experience. Being the only woman in the room, I did not speak up but I wish I did.

Sometimes management needs to be tactfully reminded that they have the power to correct these things, but they need to be made aware and it needs to be done tactfully. I can see how you regretted not speaking up in front of a majority who seemed to bless the bad behavior by indulging in it, but if it happens again you may want to speak to your supervisor in private.

We hired a new guy who needed some education from the management on how NOT to speak to female colleagues on the team. He was assigned to some projects with a female colleague of equal position and pay, and he spoke to and treated her like a subordinate although she was not. He was doing this unwittingly and meant no true harm, but it was very insulting. This was likely another case of a youngster who didn't have much experience working with women on a team. It was brought to the management and they spoke with this new guy and his behavior changed immediately, he's now much easier to work with all around and everyone is happy about it. But if no one spoke to the management about the behavior, it would have gone on unchecked and probably escalated.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#358

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 6:44 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #348

yummyfajitas wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll ignore your ad-hominem and your strange attempts to change the topic to your uncommon definition of sexism (as opposed to the original definition used by blowski, Pauline Leet, Caroline Bird, and everyone else here). You are correct that it is possible that by giving people snacks they prefer, I'm affecting their future preferences in some way. So what? All actions might possibly influence people's future prefer…

> your uncommon definition of sexism My definition of sexism really is the common academic definition (although by "definition" I mean "definition plus corollaries", but it's a good enough approximation for people unfamiliar with research). > Why would I trade actual predictable present-day happiness for unpredictable changes in future behavior that might theoretically be somewhat better? Why wouldn't you? The questi…

I think I was pretty clear that my goal was to "make everyone happier". Obviously if you want to maximize paperclips you'll come to different conclusions.

I can't figure out what point you are trying to make. Best I can tell is that we should stop talking about bias against people due to gender and talk about your preferred topics instead?

Achieving similar power distribution between men and women is a value of mine...

It's an irrelevant one, however, since you can't actually predict whether any action will change this distribution.

As for your "years of study" that result in no testable predictions, I'm sorry for you. Perhaps it might have been a better use of time to spend a semester studying complex systems instead. I think I know what you are trying to claim (positive liapunov exponent + error m in measurement of x(0) -> error m e^Lt in prediction of x(t)), but the nonexistence of good predictions does not follow this - it merely changes the character of the predictions. Typically the predictions concern probability distributions on x, regions exhibiting certain behavior, phase transitions, etc.

While I could simply argue by authority, based on getting a Ph.D. in nonlinear multivariate differential equations, I'm making claims that can actually be intellectually defended. So feel free to exhibit some actual math and I'll carefully illustrate why you are wrong.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#359

Post by aaronem » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 6:53 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #356

aaronem wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently the two roles aren't perceived as compatible by whoever felt the need to apologize to a fellow engineer for saying something that no engineer would be upset to hear, or for that matter at all unlikely to say. If he has to choose, as apparently he does, between thinking of her as an engineer and thinking of her as a lady, then I'd suggest that the role she's earned should trump the one to which she was born…

I don't see that "likes to swear or have people swear nearby" is an essential or generally accepted component of the role of "engineer". Your statement is actually extremely sexist, I'm not sure if you realise that. "The role she's earned should trump the one to which she was born" - so being a "lady" is somehow an "inferior role" that can be trumped by the superior, earned role of "being an engineer"? It really does…

> so being a "lady" is somehow an "inferior role" that can be trumped by the superior, earned role of "being an engineer"?

Not at all. As an accurate reading of my earlier comment would make obvious, I'm well aware they are not incompatible in the slightest. But for someone who doesn't understand that, and has therefore to choose one or the other as a basis for dealing with another person, "engineer" would seem to be preferable, and I've yet to run across the engineer, in a room full of engineers, to whom an apology for swearing is necessary.

The remainder of your exceptionalism I'll let pass without comment, save to note that of course nothing says "civilized" like days of unsuppressed looting and rioting in the capital city. Yes, you're clearly doing something right there.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#360

Post by kaitai » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 6:58 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #302

Qworg wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another issue with this argument is that all of those fields are considerable less well remunerated than technology.

http://www.livingin-canada.com/salaries-for-registered-nurse... http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN... The average yearly income of a nurse in my country is between $3k less, and $10k more than the average salary of a software developer in my country, depending on the source. Although the stresses are perhaps not comparable, it's important to note that a nurse working the same hours as a typi…

Canada is nice.

Teachers in the US make on average $58k or so, varying from state to state quite a lot. It's about $30k less than the average software developer in the US, and if you're not very senior as a teacher you might get fired every year and rehired in fall. It's not a very secure job in many places, actually, even if you can teach math or science.

Nurses in the US make a lot more money, on par with developers, but much more physically and emotionally demanding.