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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

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Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#351

Post by omginternets »

galtwho wrote: post #332
natvod wrote: post #76

Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised: Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls. However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties. Why? I think this issue…

the more equal a society the less likely women will opt for hard sciences as evidenced by this doco on the "Gender Equality" paradox https://vimeo.com/19707588

I'm on a long train ride without headphones. would you be so kind as to summarize the argument from your video?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#352

Post by astrange »

seansmccullough wrote: post #254

The real issue is that our society tells girls it's more important to be attractive and have lots of friends, instead of being smart and intelligent. The posters aren't the problem, the pipeline is, and the pipeline starts with parents.

Are you sure being attractive and having lots of friends isn't a better life strategy than being really intelligent? It gets you laid way more often.

(Not that either of those are strategies really.)

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#353

Post by astrange »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #80
omegaham wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll confirm this anecdotally. My sister was extremely good at math and science... until the end of middle school, when she started hanging out in earnest with her friends. Her friends thought that any intellectual interest was nerdy and stupid, and my sister acted accordingly. Now, the girl who was easily learning algebra in elementary school "just can't do math." I think that the big difference in STEM is that nerd…

It's very sad how many people (both male and female) I knew growing up were "extremely good at math and science" until they ran headlong into anti-intellectual American high school culture. I saw people who loved science fiction spiral into useless party culture and end up with unfulfilling low-value service jobs. That's a tremendous waste of talent, and I don't think it's very much a gender issue. I favor an approac…

> I favor an approach where we separate kids who've shown some aptitude for the sciences and concentrate them in schools full of their peers.

They tried that on us ("gifted schools"). The two things it got us were hours less sleep each day because of the longer commute, and worse college admissions because of GPA deflation. I would've rather stayed in the normal pipeline and gotten scholarships instead.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#354

Post by pgeorgi »

hackuser wrote: post #268
duaneb wrote: post #251

No matter who you are, applying broad strokes to the industry is going to paint many incorrectly. The idea that there is one factor that "really" keeps women out of tech implies that the other reasons are false. In reality, it is very subjective. I would also have been put off by her experience with pressure to "act like a man" and I'm a man. But, just as anecdotally, I only encountered this once: the cs department o…

> The idea that there is one factor that "really" keeps women out of tech implies that the other reasons are false. There could be a few factors that account for the vast majority.

So it's okay if we only throw 30% of women (or whatever other underrepresented group is optimized for) under the bus because they're not like the others?

Isn't "just behave like the others (to succeed)" exactly what we're trying to get rid of?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#355

Post by varjag »

cLeEOGPw wrote: post #349

The first sentence of the article is a claim without any substance and the rest on the article builds on it. Regarding "gender diversity", I know for sure that construction, road works, automechanic, welding, mining and many other fields have "overrepresented men problem", while teacher, nurse have "overrepresented women" problem, so why focus on technology sector which is pretty good compared to those? The answer is…

> Regarding "gender diversity", I know for sure that construction, road works, automechanic, welding, mining and many other fields have "overrepresented men problem", while teacher, nurse have "overrepresented women" problem, so why focus on technology sector which is pretty good compared to those?

I am in Norway, and men are hardly underrepresented in teaching and nursery here. I also visit tunnels under construction due to my work sometimes, and can't say a girl in reflex and hard hat is that uncommon sight. They are still under-represented in STEM overall, however. Not sure what the conclusion is here, but it is probably not the one you are trying to make.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#356

Post by dennisgorelik »

This article raises an interesting question, but then give no good answer to it.

The actual answer is that women generally like modern programming noticeably less than men do.

Women are better at nurturing and maintenance. Men are better with handling abstract concepts and solving deep problems by having narrow focus.

Before computers became mainstream (prior to ~1980) typical programming job was more about nurturing and maintenance. Typical women skills were a good match for programming back then.

However what programmers did back then in 1960es-1970es is now covered by ~electronic spreadsheets.

Modern programming is much deeper and more focused than it was 35+ years ago, so most women prefer moving to other professions. In spite of affirmative action that tries to attract women to tech.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#357

Post by rimantas »

mcguire wrote: post #276
pavornyoh wrote: post #19

> What really keeps women out of Tech? It is because they don't want to be there. The opportunity is there for everyone to take thus men and women. I actually think women have an advantage in this space and it is up to them to see it and advantage of it. As a woman, I am tired this. If you want it, go and get it. There shouldn't be any special treatment. Prove you deserve to be at the table, prove you deserve to be t…

Schema for gender discussion in tech, version 3.c.ii: 1. An article is posted wherein a woman describes wanting to be in tech and not doing so due to active and passive opposition. 2. Many comments discussing how women aren't in tech because they don't want to be there. I swear, these threads are all straight out of How to Suppress Women's Writing by Joanna Russ (a book I strongly recommend; it's absolutely hi-damn-l…

Are you aware that you are replying to a woman?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#358

Post by galtwho »

omginternets wrote: post #351
galtwho wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the more equal a society the less likely women will opt for hard sciences as evidenced by this doco on the "Gender Equality" paradox https://vimeo.com/19707588

I'm on a long train ride without headphones. would you be so kind as to summarize the argument from your video?

basically a comedian asked question on why women were still choosing non-hard sciences in scandinavian countries inspite of the overt and covert equality measures. it ends up pitting one side against other. My reading is only one side had evidence and the other side used lots of emotion. Google threw up these references

1. http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/a_funny_thing_happe...

2. https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1vuho8/the_docu...

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#359

Post by jokoon »

natvod wrote: post #76

Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised: Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls. However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties. Why? I think this issue…

> Rather, I think the problem is, the professional/business world as a whole rewards and values masculine traits (competitiveness, talking highly of yourself and accomplishments, etc.) much more than feminine ones.

Exactly. Masculinity is all about taking risks. Capitalism is about risk. So of course men lead the way.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#360

Post by pgeorgi »

sfRattan wrote: post #339

> Over and over, Dr. Cheryan and her colleagues have found that female students are more interested in enrolling in a computer class if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines. That last part sounds s…

I guess Star Wars and (much of SciFi) has no strong tie to a computer class except for a certain subcultural influence not shared universally (and so they don't _need_ to be part of the class room).

But if the computer class isn't just a editor/spreadsheet/media class (which is okay, and maybe even important, but not "computer"), having computer parts and tech magazines around (within reason) provide a relatively realistic representation of what the field is about.

To me that paragraph read as "computer class is okay when it has nothing to do with computers" - which I think is sad.

But then the description is so non-descript, that it's hard to tell what kind of images they provided. If the "computer parts and magazines" version looked like http://moo.acadiau.ca:7000/865, that may indeed not be very attractive.

(Also: coffee makers in class rooms? yuck. I wouldn't want to be in a class that smells like coffee all the time)

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