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Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

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Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#341
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interesting that she is autistic. Autism is apparently more common among boys than girls. Could this be one reason why tech attracts more men than women? "Maybe this group of people has more of X because X is more likely to have a neurodevelopmental disorder"? Nice. Thank you so much for associating a whole industry with autism. A disorder that apparently 1-2 out of 1,000 people have, at that.

> "Maybe this group of people has more of X because X is more likely to have a neurodevelopmental disorder"? Nice. Thank you so much for associating a whole industry with autism. You have it flipped. "This group of people with a neurodevelopmental disorder are more inclined to X and therefore industry of X has more of them." Which is an entirely valid thing to say, by the way. I'd be willing to bet that people with h…

> You have it flipped. "This group of people with a neurodevelopmental disorder are more inclined to X and therefore industry of X has more of them."

> Which is an entirely valid thing to say, by the way.

The point was the severity. 1 to 2 persons in a thousand, and you think this is sizeable enough to impact a whole industry which is not really small at all? To colour a whole industry? To such a degree that everyone or a majority is on the autism spectrum, to refer to your last paragraph? Ridiculous. Not to mention that would require all people with autism to be functioning enough to maintain a job. Assuming I would even accept your pulled-out-of-your-hat numbers.

What is effectively being said is that many of those nerd archetypes are born out of, or affected to a large degree, by people with neurodevelopmental disorder. A great springboard for people who hate nerds to claim that they are suffering from a kind of arrested development or other non-normal deficiency, for sure.

> I can understand a displeasure that the association is with something "negative", but that doesn't immediately invalidate the statement.

You're right that it wasn't as much of a statement about it being wrong as it was a statement like this betrays his attitude towards the tech industry. Hint: I didn't ever say that it being an outlandish belief made it wrong, for crying out loud! The mention of 1-2 in a thousand was more of a reference to how it was unlikely, however.

Maybe I'll start to consider the veracity of this claim itself when I see some effort to prove it one way or the other. But I don't have much patience for complacent musings on deficits of a whole group of people.

> I'd be willing to bet that people with higher-than-normal levels of empathy and an outgoing attitude are more inclined to work social jobs than solitary jobs. Would you disagree with that?

But that wasn't the comparison to begin with. The implicit comparison was with people who have a lack of empathy and social inclination due to neurodevelopment disorder, and normal people. Now if we change that comparison to people in general -- on average normal -- who can either be inclined to be people-oriented or not, then this becomes a whole other question. Not even objectionable anymore!

I thought that we were about to move beyond viewing people who choose to, or somehow have less talent for, being social as being underdeveloped in some way[1]. Apparently not. Do we ever hear about extra talkative or otherwise people-oriented people being deficit in some way? No, of course not. Such people are just good, normal people. Apparently people with some kind of high intellect (not that all such people have that) must have traded something else in some way, but people who are people-focused are just well-rounded and overall fantastic. Maybe we should also discuss one of those ridiculous tropes about how some high-powered jobs are "filled"[2] with people who are apparently sociable and outgoing, but really are sociopaths. Right? No one would ever be offended by that.

[1] In the sense of being medically diagnosed with autism.

[2] Again: it's the relative quantity that makes these discussions absurd. Certainly without any extraordinary evidence to back them up.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#342
post #84

I'm a big fan of Meredith. She's one of the few "women in tech" (yuck) that I feel like actually speaks my point of view and articulates how I feel about all of this. My impression is that most of the people that spend their time pontificating about women's issues in this industry are doing so from the outside, and I kinda resent that. This article by Susan Sons is also good: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/girls…

That article by Susan kept coming to mind while reading this one.

I think that most women that actually work in technology have feelings closer to the ones expressed here than the stuff that a vocal minority spreads all over the internet.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#343
post #268
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say this a sample of 1 - and from a biased source, too. My daughter graduated form high-school last year. Not only had I not heard a single case of girls being refused entry to anything - most of the times it seemed like my daughter and her female friends (most of them straight "A" students in a very competitive high-school in the Boston, MA area) were almost harassed to join the math club, the robotics club,…

Please do not downvote just because you disagree - it is against the rules. I was questioning the statement "many examples of girls being actively refused...", because the poster provided an example of ONE incident. I provided valid observations from my own experience, providing contrary evidence, just to make a point that we cannot form an opinion based on one event.

> Please do not downvote just because you disagree - it is against the rules.

It's not. I can see how this myth took root on HN, but it's funny how persistent it is given that it was clarified quite a few times even by PG.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jewish folks and South Asian folks overcame discrimination from Americans by killing them? Are you from Earth-2? Read Steven Dutch's essay "The world's most toxic value system" [1] before you recommend violence as a solution to any group's problems. It's a comfortably direct approach, but it backfires. It creates a class of violent people who will push others down, so the group as a whole stays down. [1] http://www.u…

I didn't recommend anything. I just suggested one become a little more familiar with history before making absurd claims and value judgements against whole races of people. Every single one of the cited examples had to fight bloody wars of independence against occupation before their refugees were even seen as human. We enslaved the Chinese. We used the Irish in proxy wars between street gangs that still are going on…

[deleted]

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jewish folks and South Asian folks overcame discrimination from Americans by killing them? Are you from Earth-2? Read Steven Dutch's essay "The world's most toxic value system" [1] before you recommend violence as a solution to any group's problems. It's a comfortably direct approach, but it backfires. It creates a class of violent people who will push others down, so the group as a whole stays down. [1] http://www.u…

I didn't recommend anything. I just suggested one become a little more familiar with history before making absurd claims and value judgements against whole races of people. Every single one of the cited examples had to fight bloody wars of independence against occupation before their refugees were even seen as human. We enslaved the Chinese. We used the Irish in proxy wars between street gangs that still are going on…

I just tried to educate myself about the Chinese getting enslaved and fighting a war for independence, but unfortunately I failed. Which events are you referring to?

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once got into a twitter fight with Shanley. She's a bit... un-nuanced. I'd say "immature" but that's ageism, I'm surely double her age. ;)

And hilariously/ironically/awesomely, it turns out that Meredith is according to her Facebook page: "Principle NLP engineer at Nuance Communications" So although she says she struggled with fast communication and language and talking to people directly, she now works on speech processing software :)

Hilarious. I also know it's entirely possible that some of her twitter output is a "persona"... but she drew a lot of negative attention to me at some point (quite unnecessarily I think) so I unfollowed her. Glancing at her latest feed, not really missing it either

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#347
At the risk of over simplifying matters, what do you expect from people who see the world in black and white. Many of the feminists who say this (the third generation feminists with a cacophony of radical ideologies) read very specific material, mostly of the blogs variety, and live in their own bubble where their own reading material and friends reflect only their views. Add to this that difference of opinion and reflection are not entertained, this would imply that you have less than total belief in articles of faith and leaves you open to labels that are often applied to heathens. All that can be done with these people is to not get offended by them and let them work out for them selves why things are not always so black and white.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#348
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stock a team of people attacking a problem with people who fit one precise mold, you'll miss out on the breadth of problems that people from other backgrounds face. More importantly, you'll miss out on their solutions to those problems. You're trading global progress for a blip of personal comfort extracted at a high cost from more vulnerable people. Seriously in the most crass cynical context imaginable, dive…

If you stock a team of people attacking a problem with people who fit one precise mold, you'll miss out on the breadth of problems that people from other backgrounds face. If I'm building an algorithm for packing bytes into an array, inverting matrices, or some similarly technological issue, why would insights into police profiling or sexual harassment be useful? Seriously in the most crass cynical context imaginable…

You didn't start out asking for "much more intellectual and practical rigor than many seem to possess." You started out with a broad assertion that there was no possibility of anything existing in this "incentive space" for a straight, white man to do anything but kick minorities to the curb and languish on unearned privilege. I firmly believe that something like "Ashy" is undeniable explanatory of the incentives around it for someone aggressively invested in maintaining their own privilege.

As charming as it is to see you sprint down the field with those goalposts in tow if you honestly thought your first reply warranted intellectualism instead of bro-pandering you're deluding yourself. Do yourself a favor and plug "diverse teams perform better" to educate yourself on a variety of studies across science, finance, and engineering coming to this conclusion. Don't act like "how do I convince my shithead friend" should be met with reams of dry papers instead of introductory pop-culture pablum to get the 101-grade materials across.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not seen the play, but looking at the wikipedia page, they give eight examples of the monologues, and I don't see anything that's obviously anti-male. (unless you're going to get angry about "My Vagina Was My Village, a monologue compiled from the testimonies of Bosnian women subjected to rape camps.")

I have seen the play. The issue is that all the male-female relationships are portrayed as bad, whereas female-female relationships are portrayed as good (even when the girl was underage). This is discussed in the wikipedia page, and it's also pretty obvious if you watch the play.

I saw the play too. It sounds like the version you saw didn't have the story about Bob in it? That was, like, a tale of instant miraculous redemption through a male-female sexual relationship. And what about the relationship between the coochie-snorcher girl and her father, who shot to death his friend who was raping her? (Maybe you meant "sexual relationship" where you wrote "relationship", which would exclude that one.) And I'm pretty sure in the "If your vagina could talk, what would it say?" part, there were a lot of women speaking positively about male-female sexual relationships.

I didn't think it was too unbalanced, but of course I'm a pretty committed feminist, which is why I saw the play in the first place, back in 2000.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Men are rapists and sexual offenders by default. > Nope, the argument is that there is a societal pattern that devalues the severity of rape through humour and other cultural tropes. "Teach men not to rape." "Teach your sons to respect women." >> Men are violent. > The patriarchal "masculinity" foisted upon men is one that is competitive and aggressive. Framing masculinity as a negative is anti-male. "Patriarchy"…

This is perhaps a little late, since this fell off the front page, but I figured I'd respond to you because you seem to have your heart in the right place, but have a kind of twisted view of what most feminists actually believe. It also feels like you're mixing up the views of one political/social movement with the current state of the world as a whole, which is a poor argument against feminism. I would point out tha…

motte and bailey
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