Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

paulgraham.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 655 posts

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#341

Post by davidw »

NhanH wrote: post #336
davidw wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

patio11 is very much American, and could easily move to the US if he wanted to. Actually, now he can't because he's married to a foreign citizen, and the United States puts those people through all kinds of hassle and lengthly waits even if they are married to someone from the US.

I know patio11 is American, that wasn't the point.

Fair enough - but it's distracting; you could write "someone like patio11". Your point is correct: you can't just up and move to the US easily even if you're good what you do, and you're a net positive for the economy.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#342

Post by acgourley »

hacknat wrote: post #312
winter_blue wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The O visa for all practical purposes is impossible to get. It can take years to get an EB visa. Most talented/skilled workers come here on an H1 or L1, and eventually get permanent residency via the EB visa. For a company that's hiring and unable to find good programmers, the H1 is really the only visa available to them.

No they're not. You have to higher a lawyer and spend some money, but my dad got one coming from Canada and he was a middle manager at best (at the time).

It's become more difficult.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#343

Post by briandear »

craigyk wrote: post #212
gnufied wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder where do you get your data for "hire someone from India for half the cost". Of all the facts thrown around - this is easily verifiable - http://www.h1bwage.com/index.php If you ignore those employed on hourly basis, a majority of people on H1B are paid quite well. Apart from salary and benefits - add Visa processing fees for their Kids and Spouse as well (which can easily amount to > 30k+) I think people und…

But why expand the H1B program vs. a more open immigration policy in general, or removing H1B lock-in restrictions? So are you claiming that companies are paying an extra 30K for all their H1B employees on top of giving them a salary that exactly matches that of their non H1B peers?

They don't pay that extra $30k per year. That's a relatively sunk cost. If you can pay a $30k premium up front, then pay that employee less over time than the US equivalent AND that employee is locked to that employer, then it's well worth that $30k upfront. Of course we are stipulating that it actually does cost $30k on average, which I haven't seen the data to support (or refute) that.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#344

Post by andrewmutz »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #334
andrewmutz wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just to be clear, if we have more Doctors & Lawyers, so their wages decrease, and the cost of receiving medical care or getting legal help goes down, this would be bad for everyone?

Yes. Then your most talented citizens will go into other work and the quality provided will go down. This is really quite simple. If there's ways for the most talented to make more money, that's where they're going. The most talented aren't locked into any particular career. Sure, there will be exceptions, but the overall trend will be undeniable.

As long as Hospitals and Law firms continue to hire competent Doctors and Lawyers, this would be a win for society. More people getting health care or access to the legal system, at lower prices, would be a good thing for society.

And I don't see any reason why an increase in the number of Doctors or Lawyers would cause Hospitals or Law firms to hire incompetent employees.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#345

Post by briandear »

jitl wrote: post #84
austenallred wrote: post #12

I really want to believe this, but I'm not sure that I do. Of course the tech companies want to hire people from overseas; being able to hire someone from India for half the cost but have them live in the US so there's some level of accountability/trust is a no-brainer. Huge new, cheap talent pool. But, if I'm an entry-level, US-based programmer, what I see are floods of cheap talent, some with questionable skills, c…

Did you read the essay? You seem to be totally ignoring the point that excellent programmers will be paid well because they are scarce compared to "decent" programmers. The goal is not to import cut-rate talent at cut-rate prices.

So the 100,000 we're importing each year are all exceptional? Have we absolutely maxed the yield of that 100k? I don't think so.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#346

Post by Amadou »

tomohawk wrote: post #270
gnufied wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder where do you get your data for "hire someone from India for half the cost". Of all the facts thrown around - this is easily verifiable - http://www.h1bwage.com/index.php If you ignore those employed on hourly basis, a majority of people on H1B are paid quite well. Apart from salary and benefits - add Visa processing fees for their Kids and Spouse as well (which can easily amount to > 30k+) I think people und…

The real problem with h1b is that it appears to be primarily used to offshore jobs to other countries. The largest users of h1b visas are firms that bring people to the US for a period of time to get trained, then have them return to their country of origin, offshoring the work (see for example http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2007-02-08/work-visas-ma... ) So, tossing H1B would be a great start at immigration refo…

Your point can not be emphasized enough.

In 2012, all 10 of the top 10 H1B employers were offshore outsourcing companies. http://www.epi.org/blog/top-10-h1b-guestworker-offshore-outs...

In 2013, 50% of all H1B visas went to offshore outsourcers. http://www.computerworld.com/article/2489146/technology-law-...

It is difficult for me to not say anything disparaging about Graham's analsysis of the problem being just "a handful of consulting firms" when it is actually the primary use of H1B visas.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#347

Post by briandear »

khyryk wrote: post #157
oe wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe interview them before hiring? :)

Well, will great programmers line up at the "great programmers" H1B line? Probably not. Will the government screen applicants in order to increase the concentration of "great programmers"? Hah. There are no means available to us to increase the concentration of great programmers in a pool of programmers without great cost, and this inevitably means that in order to get more great programmers, one has to go through mo…

Exactly. It's strip mining. Destroy the 'environment' with a relatively low yield.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#348

Post by andrewmutz »

andrewmutz wrote: post #300
hacknat wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be bad for me and the US, no? Not saying it is, but it is an option. I'm skeptical a sane immigration bill can get passed. The current H1 visas are incredibly generous to the companies that get to sponsor them over the workers. I'd be in favor of a policy that was company agnostic and gave the workers a lot more freedom, such a bill would be good for me, the immigrants, and the U.S., but I sincerely doubt su…

I don't know what H1-B visas you are used to, but the current ones are completely owned by the worker. An employee sponsored by an H1-B can literally collect their first paycheck and immediately move to another employer. I'm not sure how much more freedom you want.

Instead of downvotes, I'd love to see some data contradicting this. Here is information supporting it:

http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/h1b%20visa%20transfer%20to%2...

http://www.usavisanow.com/h-1b-visa/h1b-visa-resources/h-1b-...

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#349

Post by droopyEyelids »

sampo wrote: post #325
droopyEyelids wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people consider a move to a new apartment in the same city inconvenient. There are very few people who wouldn't consider being forced to move across continents, while giving up their rights, a highly biasing factor in the pros/cons of any decision they made.

> Most people consider a move to a new apartment in the same city inconvenient. This is a good point. But finding out that your employer is so nasty that they use your visa status as a bargaining chip, can be even more inconvenient.

Nearly every company larger than 100 people optimizes for financial outcomes. That's amoral, not evil, don't confuse yourself.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#350

Post by gaius »

arjie wrote: post #198
mrottenkolber wrote: post #167

What I take away from the HN/Startup/Recruiting drama: * Companies don't know how find good people (they think they know how to attract them, but honestly, how can they tell? They don't notice the ones they fail to attract, which I'd argue is most people) * Companies are unable to produce (e.g. educate) good people * They want to solve their failures by increasing the search space of people I have no sympathy at all…

Someone else can always offer 20% more than you if they use you to train. This may work on the small scale where you build lasting relationships, but on the scale of large companies? You'd rapidly gain a reputation of being a springboard, and not a place people join to do their best work.

McKinsey et al have built incredibly successful franchises by being "springboards", and one of their most powerful assets is their alumni network.
Post reply on HN