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Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

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Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#341

Post by krater23 »

i2talics wrote: post #157

I hope announcements like this show that Rust is not a fledgling little language that moves fast and breaks things anymore. It's a mature, serious competitor to well established languages like C++ and C#. This is particularly important when trying to compare the experience of using Rust to other languages in the "better C/C++" space like Zig and Odin -- these are much newer and have more rough edges than Rust.

I expect that using Rust is in some years just the sign for vibe coded shit that only doesn't crashes every two minutes because the compiler is stopping the AI from doing the really dumb things.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#342

Post by apatheticonion »

I've been writing Rust professionally for the last 5 years (where my first decade of professional experience started in frontend, then moved down the stack TypeScript/Node, Go, C# and so on).

From the perspective of high level application development, I can't see a technical use case for a language other than Rust these days. If wasm worked (and MacOS/Windows/Android/iOS native UI support existed), I would write my backends and frontends exclusively in Rust.

From a low level programming perspective, the high performance of Rust combined with the self-describing type system makes it very ergonomic to use (trying to figure out how a C function signature translates to behavior is a frustrating experience for me).

The thing I have been most saddened about is the lack of professional opportunities for Rust, particularly in Sydney (where I live). I considered moving to the US for the higher salaries and access to Rust roles but recently landed a role here.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#343

Post by ThunderSizzle »

apatheticonion wrote: post #342

I've been writing Rust professionally for the last 5 years (where my first decade of professional experience started in frontend, then moved down the stack TypeScript/Node, Go, C# and so on). From the perspective of high level application development, I can't see a technical use case for a language other than Rust these days. If wasm worked (and MacOS/Windows/Android/iOS native UI support existed), I would write my b…

Interesting perspective. I toyed with rust a bit from the perspective of a c# background (and a bit of java, php, classic asp, JavaScript, typescript, etc) .

I like rust, but I've come to still prefer c#'s object oriented features. Perhaps it's my naivety, but I've found c# AOT compilation to do plenty of trimming and startup performance optimization that I don't see it as a bad option.

Have you made a personal comparison on Rust vs Object Oriented Languages like c#?

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#344

Post by skavi »

ryukoposting wrote: post #277
tialaramex wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust 1.0 was in 2015. Most of these languages you're thinking of out of the Handmade Community didn't even start development until around the point Rust 1.0 shipped. In theory Odin 2027, the 1.0 release of Bill's Odin language, is scheduled for, as the name suggests, early 2027. Zig does not have an announced 1.0 schedule, and who knows for the other two famous Handmade languages. From the rash of "C++ successor" lan…

As an embedded dev, it still feels a decade away, at least. Rust is perfectly usable as a lang to make a little module that links into your main project as a .a file. But, as the language for your whole embedded codebase? Forget it. I have a litany of complaints including Cargo fuckery, ecosystem neglect, lack of first-party support, excessive code size, bad documentation, and bad IR that wastes stack by creating cop…

All reasonable pain points. On the "Cargo fuckery" though, you might consider switching to an alternate build system like Bazel. Comes with its own set of issues (rustc isn't tied to Cargo, but the third party ecosystem definitely assumes it). But for embedded where you're cross compiling and working with C and C++ as well, I find it's a better solution than Cargo.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#345

Post by jshier »

throwaway27448 wrote: post #339
jshier wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the first unlock after a reboot yes, except for those items with very high security (usually just keychain items) that require an unlock for every access. Lock screen items can be locked every time you lock the phone, or set to allow access while locked (after first unlock). Unfortunately this is an all or nothing setting, unless the widget specifically uses the redaction views to hide content. Oddly, I find th…

So—the widget doesn't function normally until the phone is unlocked? I don't want to flex but that seems worth acknowledging from every perspective

Until the first unlock after a reboot, no, like I said. Given how rarely iOS devices are rebooted it's not an issue.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#346

Post by drzaiusx11 »

apatheticonion wrote: post #342

I've been writing Rust professionally for the last 5 years (where my first decade of professional experience started in frontend, then moved down the stack TypeScript/Node, Go, C# and so on). From the perspective of high level application development, I can't see a technical use case for a language other than Rust these days. If wasm worked (and MacOS/Windows/Android/iOS native UI support existed), I would write my b…

If wasm worked is a pretty big caveat still. DOM APIs are still significantly slower in rust using wasm than pure js last I checked.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#347

Post by koyote »

Levitating wrote: post #26
flohofwoe wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Optimistic to assume that modern day programmers even know what a debugger is, or if they do, consider it as anything else than some weird ancient shibboleth only used by the greybeards ;)

To be fair, even before LLMs could spot my bugs in an instant I really only regularly used debuggers in C because it can't display arbitrary types in debug print statements.

> even before LLMs could spot my bugs in an instant

I guess it depends on the bugs.

LLMs even INSIDE the (VS) debugger couldn't work out some of the more recent bugs I have been looking at. Never mind by statically looking at the code base.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#348

Post by i2talics »

stusmall wrote: post #269
i2talics wrote: post #157

I hope announcements like this show that Rust is not a fledgling little language that moves fast and breaks things anymore. It's a mature, serious competitor to well established languages like C++ and C#. This is particularly important when trying to compare the experience of using Rust to other languages in the "better C/C++" space like Zig and Odin -- these are much newer and have more rough edges than Rust.

>I hope announcements like this show that Rust is not a fledgling little language that moves fast and breaks things anymore I see this on here a lot on this site, but Rust hasn't been that in over a decade. Rust's devotion to post 1.0 stability is massive and has involved some interesting design choices. I started writing run in 2015(?) and only hit one breaking change in the language. It was a niche bug in a macro t…

Hah, I remember error_chain. One of my projects during an internship was upgrading a bunch of the old error handling libraries to the new things. I'm glad that corner of the ecosystem has stabilized now.

At that same job we hit a pretty nasty breaking change where mem::uninitialized() was deprecated and this turned out to cause a lot of critical async libraries to explode at runtime. But these sorts of things don't really happen anymore. The editions system is an excellent design and a big contributor to making the language and stdlib reliable.

Re: Rust is tier-1 language at Microsoft

#349

Post by i2talics »

shevy-java wrote: post #315
i2talics wrote: post #157

I hope announcements like this show that Rust is not a fledgling little language that moves fast and breaks things anymore. It's a mature, serious competitor to well established languages like C++ and C#. This is particularly important when trying to compare the experience of using Rust to other languages in the "better C/C++" space like Zig and Odin -- these are much newer and have more rough edges than Rust.

I was making the same argument just a moment before, using TIOBE. Now TIOBE is awful, but Rust is at rank #10 right now. I think this settles the older discussion as to whether Rust will prevail or not.

Meh, I don't really trust TIOBE. It's at best a very noisy signal. And languages can end up on there for unusual reasons.
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