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Raspberry Pi 5 – 16GB RAM

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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 – 16GB RAM

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might also point out that with Pi/mini PC pricing being the way it is, a used iPad mini mounted to the wall is also in the same price range. As a bonus you could remove it from the wall and walk around with it, and you’ve got way less DIY work to deal with.

Well, nobody's arguing about RPi prices here. I'm just advocating for using the right tool for the job. Lots of people claim that Raspberry Pis have been rendered obsolete by cheap N100 mini PCs but they simply lack the understanding of what RPi actually is and what are its optimal use cases. Hosting a home server on a 16GB Raspberry Pi is mental illness territory and that's where an x86 mini PC is going to make way…

Basically, my point is that for the use case of “touch screen on a wall,” you can grab something modest like a 4GB Raspbery Pi 5 for over $110 with no screen, power supply, enclosure, etc.

Or you look at a mini PC and you really can’t buy one at all for much less than $200 these days. Again, no screen.

But Apple will sell you a refurbished iPad mini for $379 and you’ve got nothing to setup.

I share your concern about running it with the battery all the time, but I think it’s pretty common. I probably wouldn’t put it in my wall but I know of a place of business I frequent often that has one plugged in 24/7 and nothing has happened.

Apple power manages devices that are plugged in all the time, they’ll likely just park the battery at 80%. They are also about as good as you can get as far as hardware quality: Apple sells a bazillion devices and has definitely thought of fire risk.

The other benefit of the iPad is that the accessory ecosystem is vast.

Re: Raspberry Pi 5 – 16GB RAM

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can a N100-class minipc” be installed inside of a wall with a touchscreen and serve as a PoE powered Home Assistant interface? Can it be used to build a portable battery powered smartphone like PC (Compute Module 5)? Raspberry Pi’s biggest strength is its form factor and low power draw.

To drive a touchscreen and serve as a Home Assistant interface you need neither a Pi nor an N100-class mini PC. That's the job of an ESP32. 20 bucks... for a pack of 5. (plus the screen. And ethernet / PoE variants are rare, and not as cheap, so if that's a hard requirement, maybe not for your specific use case)

Or! a "handheld gaming" device that runs mainline Linux.

Setting aside what they're for, Linux handheld gaming devices are kind of a perfect fit for a minor "house computer". Made cheap by commodification. Flexible. Sadly no GPIO in these I think but tack on an RP2350 and we're golden.

Strip or modify the chassis and embed them hidden or with the screen facing out. Kachinng.

Re: Raspberry Pi 5 – 16GB RAM

#343
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure Microcenter is not selling Pi Zeroes at a loss. They're an authorized retailer selling at the part's MSRP. They do sometimes make these available only in store, not online, once they sell out online and I don't think it's a mystery why a retail business would do that.

Why are you so confident? Raspberry Pi's prospectus says "unit gross profit margin of 20 per cent. for us and 10 per cent. for our ARs" and they give an example: "sell it to our ARs for $90, which in turn would sell it to the end user for $100". AR=Approved Resellers and delivery costs are paid by the reseller. Is 10%/$1.50 enough to pay for the retailer's freight, ~3% fee to accept credit cards, inventory carrying,…

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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 – 16GB RAM

#344

It's crazy how Raspberry Pi & Apple prices have moved in converging direction. Pi 5 8GB is $200 MacBook Neo 8GB is $600 (probably some edu discount available) Sure 3x the price, but it comes with - 256GB SSD, battery, display, keyboard, trackpad.. So the Pi has slowly become too expensive for weird one-off projects and also price competitive with a cheap Mac by the time you add all the stuff you need to use it as a c…

You can get Radxa ROCK 5C 16GB RAM for $160 on AliExpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007473801146.html

Re: Raspberry Pi 5 – 16GB RAM

#345

Pi's attraction was that it was a cheap hobby computer. I could buy a whole laptop for that money. I know RAM prices are crazy right now, but I just bought a 16gb Ryzen 7 motherboard to repair an IdeaPad for €70

You can still get Radxa ROCK 5C 16GB RAM for $160 on AliExpress: https://pl.aliexpress.com/item/1005007473801146.html

Re: Raspberry Pi 5 – 16GB RAM

#347

Some folks might have missed that memory prices on the whole are up [1] 90% since Q4. The memory used by the Pi 5 is up 700% [2]! Raspberry Pi are working the issue by releasing new memory variants that are cheaper[2]. Edit: You can still walk into a Microcenter and get Pi 5 16GB for US $289! 1. https://au.pcpartpicker.com/trends/price/memory/ 2. https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/a-new-3gb-raspberry-pi-4-fo...

The trouble is that the RAM chip on the Pi is a high density module that's going to have come under pressure from the datacenter buildouts. An 8 GiB DIMM for a desktop or server is using 8x 1 GiB chips or 16x 512 MiB chips (9/18 for ECC). An 8 GiB Pi uses a single 8 GiB chip. That's the same density as you would use for 128 GiB or larger sticks.

> An 8 GiB Pi uses a single 8 GiB chip. That's the same density as you would use for 128 GiB or larger sticks.

Thank you for the explanation.

I wish PIs used SODIMMs. I'm sure there's a reason they don't involving address and data lines, but I wish they used cheap, commodity RAM.

Re: Raspberry Pi 5 – 16GB RAM

#348

Raspberry Pi as a company does ~$325M in annual revenue. But I can’t understand what are the use cases to be selling 73M units. Would anyone mind sharing what are the broadly applicable use cases, because selling 73M units is well beyond hobbyist fun. https://investors.raspberrypi.com/

Well, there are a lot of products being made and sold using Raspberry Pi. I have seen people use it to make interactive content on screens at escape rooms, and use it as a computer for digital signage that shows the same content on a loop.

6 months ago, I also started experimenting with Raspberry Pi, and now I am working on a Chromecast alternative for businesses called Soljacast using RPi. My device can work as digital signage, or a casting device for co-workings and event companies that use computers at events for presentations.

I am also using it to build a personal companion AI device with a screen, sort of like an Amazon Echo Show but with Microsoft's Clippy in there. So I am sure people are building even more complex stuff than me.

Here is a video of how my device is being used at a local exhibition venue: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FF3I9EOs4AA

Re: Raspberry Pi 5 – 16GB RAM

#349
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. It's clear since COVID that Pi it's barely a company for makers or DIYers anymore, but it's a supply company for small to medium industries to integrate cheap PCs in their manufacturing process and they are good at that role.

Huh. I had a work project a decade ago where we were evaluating SBCs as drivers for kiosks. At that time, the prevailing wisdom was that the Pi was specifically not for industry, as its main advantage was the strong community to provide support for DIYers. Competitors like PINE64 and Orange Pi were the same/better specs at half the price.

I've seen this sentiment a bit and while I don't dispute that you can get a better SBC for cheaper, there are still a lot of issues and it tends to be around software support primarily that allows it to occupy a very sweet spot. It's a significant factor in deciding to use them. There are a lot of embedded use cases that can be solved by hooking up to an ESP32 but there are a bunch that need a little bit more than that. If you want to run a web server for example, you do have options on the ESP32 but also writing C/C++ for a web backend is both a little fraught and kinda miserable compared to Python or Go or something. I mean it's certainly doable, but it certainly isn't the first language I'd reach for. If you want to work a little bit with streaming video, same deal

So this is the embedded Linux usecase. And... the embedded Linux ecosystem seems kinda... hacked together? You a lot of the times get Yocto Linux which is its own can of worms because you tend to invariably get meta-vendor packages that patch everything from U-Boot to the kernel to random userspace utilities. There are better cases and it depends on how much the vendor works upstream. Sometimes the vendor doesn't even bother with maintaining the meta layer and it ends up getting into a "maintained mostly by one guy in Nebraska" scenario

Some other vendors seem to take U-Boot and a copy of the Ubuntu LTS sources from 10 years ago and hacked it until it was possible to get a root shell without the thing going into a kernel panic then put the resulting image on a Google Drive or FTP server somewhere but didn't go much further than that

What ends up being is that there is like a U-Boot and Linux kernel variant for either each different SBC (or sometimes vendor thereof) duck taped together. Support, even for the peripherals included, can be spotty at best, and there are many times where you have to patch the kernel or userspace to get it to work right. I've seen boards which run the weirdest stuff, ones whose kernel patches run into the megabytes with poor (if any) documentation, boards which apparently don't want to run anything but Android, etc. There are certainly vendors that work well and upstream and make everything nice and easy but they tend to be rarer and/or more expensive

Compared that with the Pis and the difference is night and day enough that the raw specs matter less. Yes RasPi has their own kernel fork, but iirc they do work a bit upstream and the versions maintained are like 6.12 and not like 5 (which I've seen). They are also relatively easy to procure where more specialized vendors tend to be... less so. Flashing them is pretty simple and if you want to create your own image you can do that as well easily without Yocto or whatever. The HAT ecosystem is a nice way to add extensibility, the headers basically allow you to do a lot of ESPy type things as well (since Linux has native specific userspace support for GPIO, I2C, SPI, PWM, LED, hwmon, etc). And so on and so forth. And it all just kinda works

This in of itself, makes it a pretty decent option for industry, especially if it's like either n People like Geerling tend to come at it from the hobbyist or maker side of things but it does apply to the industrial side too. Yes in many cases knowing part XYZ will still be manufactured in 30 years is more important than the dev experience or some other factor is at play (power draw being another) but in a lot of cases its not (e.g. more portable code, stuff not requiring recertification) and the Pis also do have a relatively reasonable time guarantee too. It shouldn't be a bad experience to develop on these boards! But regardless, there are a lot of times that it is, and that's why I think the RasPi continues to do as well as it does.

This is also why I think, despite the price, it continues to do well in the hobbyist community. I can hook it up using the headers to anything SPI, I2C, etc, and start making it do things with very little software trouble and regardless if I want to do it in C or if I want to do it in Python

Re: Raspberry Pi 5 – 16GB RAM

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that entire product lines for random widgets you see in every day life in the dozens or hundreds have Pis inside now. A lot of "smart" things are just the thing plus a Compute Module. There are smart parking garage lights, smart inspection cameras, smart golf ball dispensers... all these things have enough margin they can absorb a 100-300% component increase, though I'm sure they don't like it.

Very few commercial and industrial products use a Pi though. Pi - 73 million sold ESP32 - 1 billion sold STM32 - 13 billion sold For every 1 Pi sold, there’s almost 200 STM32s sold.

Pis/other SBCs and ESPs/STMs/etc are effectively a different subclass of embedded

Firstly, Pis and SBCs like it tend to be fully functional OOBE on their own. This has useful properties but also means that hooking them up and testing their use is a little bit simpler even compared to a microcontroller dev board

Secondly, it's a full Linux ecosystem and all of that that it entails. This ecosystem has more in it than these ecosystems (especially in the FOSS world) and it's also useful for projects that exceed a few MB of RAM. Sure if I want to do a few things a microcontroller like this is a very very good and probably the better option (it isn't that difficult to write a lil C to control these things) but SBCs can do lot more than that while still keeping many of the advantages, which may be the difference in some cases

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