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Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

media.mercedes-benz.com

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Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#341

Post by nobrains »

tclancy wrote: post #126
mohsen1 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious how this thing works and asked Claude to visualize it -- mostly to see how good Fable is and I have to say, what it made was good enough for me to get a gist of it. Posted it here https://azimi.me/axial-flux-motor-explainer/

Every plausibly cool electric car innovation leads me to the same thought: “5-10 years from now, the restomod potential will be wild once these come down in cost.” For this, I am imagining retrofitting a Pontiac Fiero to reduce as much weight as possible and see if extended flight becomes possible.

From the animation: "Torque grows with the cube of diameter"

That seems like a pretty cool cheat-code to get more power. Perhaps it will mean you will start having cars with more distance from the ground to accommodate the large dia motor wheels.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#342

Post by henrikschroder »

pstuart wrote: post #327
henrikschroder wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nevertheless, there seems to be zero buy-in from commercial players in the US. It's such a weird uphill battle. I live in the US, but every summer I spend a month in Sweden, and the past two years I've rented EVs for the entire stay, and the buildout of chargers these past 4-5 years has been astonishing . It's gone from crap to fantastic in a very short time, and that's without massive government intervention or subs…

I think it's because the incumbents do not know how to build competitive, desirable, affordable EVs. I'm just an armchair observer, but that makes a fair amount of sense. The other part is that a lot of money is made in the production and sale of fuel and those players have significant influence in how things work -- this is evident in the Trump admin's demonization of renewables and going all in on fossil fuels. Wat…

Oh, right, the US has this weird Tesla oligopoly.

In Europe, Tesla generally has a single-digit EV marketshare, so over 90% of consumers don't care about or use the Supercharger network, and are obviously demanding charging locations.

Two years ago in Sweden I rented a random Chinese EV , a NIO ET7, and its onboard navigation system was fully connected to all the major charging networks, so I could see charging stations, their speeds, and open stalls directly in the car navigation, no external apps needed. So there's a whole perfectly functioning non-Tesla ecosystem, and pretty much everything is tap-to-pay, so no apps, no registrations, no memberships, no nothing. And no lock-in.

Kinda ironic that Teslas big start and Supercharger buildout is now holding the US back compared to the rest of the world.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#343

Post by dotancohen »

lazide wrote: post #322
dotancohen wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BYD can be lighter because they skip on safety gear and proper structural elements - in my experience. I'd love to hear more about your experience with BYD. The ex just bought one and my kids ride in it daily. I helped negotiate the sale - I drive a Tesla and I'm very happy with the BYD.

Brazilians got a bunch of them and they are super common in Brazil. Also common - broken suspension parts from driving them in Brazil. Also, the only cars I’ve ever ridden on that the top of my head literally touches the headliner while sitting in the back seat. Other than that, they seem good?

Great to know, thanks. Israeli roads are typically well maintained, but I'll keep an eye out for suspension damage.

In this Atto 3, I've ridden in the back a few times and my head does not touch the headliner. I'm 170cm.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#344

Post by dotancohen »

xethos wrote: post #302
dotancohen wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Cd matters for highway driving, but weight is the dominating factor for city driving.

As efficiency improves across motors and inverters, wouldn't regen make CoD matter more, possibly tilting it to the dominant factor again?

Regen recoups about 80% of the kinetic energy, and it is already up close to the theoretical physical limit without switching to exotic materials.

Cd will never be the dominating factor at speeds which do not produce significant aerodynamic drag.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#345

Post by KellyCriterion »

mohsen1 wrote: post #99
miohtama wrote: post #87

Mercedes acquired Yasa (UK) couple of years ago and now getting up to the speed in the production. Here is a nice video that explains axial flux motors with a factory visit https://youtu.be/B2Hl4c1iZK0?si=VfDYARyuaPVj1nKm They are so, so, small.

I was curious how this thing works and asked Claude to visualize it -- mostly to see how good Fable is and I have to say, what it made was good enough for me to get a gist of it. Posted it here https://azimi.me/axial-flux-motor-explainer/

THIS was the output of one prompt?

WOW, pretty cool!! :-)

Esp.if you scroll etc. Impressive.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#346

Post by ssl-3 »

testdelacc1 wrote: post #252
ajuc wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going from 90% to 95% efficiency you're halving the thermal loses, thus reducing the need for cooling by half. It's a big deal. Same with going from 99% to 99.5% efficiency. It still reduces the cooling needed by half.

> reducing the need for cooling by half But the motor is not the only thing that needs to be cooled. It’s mainly the battery, which has a narrow operating range. The power electronics that convert AC to DC also need to be cooled. So you’re halving the cooling needs of the motor, which is nice but small compared to the other two. And even then, total cooling doesn’t impact range that much compared to warming the batte…

Half is half.

If we halve waste-heat generation for a practical widget enough times, then we won't need liquid cooling for that widget at all. If the trend continues and gets good enough, then maybe we can get all the way to a complete passive-cooling snoozefest.

That's pretty boring, but boring is good. The systems we use every day without a thought because they boringly Just Work are, perhaps, our greatest successes.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#347

Post by alextingle »

picofarad wrote: post #103
originalvichy wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how developing electric motors compares to combustion engines. My hunch says that it’s the main reason the Chinese high-tech electronics industry was able to develop and iterate leading electric vehicles so fast. (Edit: My more clarified point is regarding the machinery required + place to accommodate them to work on electric motors vs. ICE metal parts and all the intermediary parts transfering power in the…

> develop and iterate leading electric vehicles so fast. How do you know this for a fact? Chinese press releases? You've driven one? Some auto blogger drove one? After world war 2 Gorbachev or whoever visited the United States and during that trio visited a supermarket. He thought it was a facade, possibly, put on just for him, there's no way Americans are this prosperous (or whatever, this good at agriculture, farm…

It was Yeltsin.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#348

Post by pfdietz »

rswail wrote: post #190
pfdietz wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't putting them in the wheel increase unsprung mass, which would degrade the feel of the car?

I think he was talking about small engines the size/weight of existing disk brake assemblies. So either no change or weight reduction.

Won't mechanical brakes still be needed? Regenerative braking only goes so far, and needs a backup.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#349

Post by FabHK »

ajuc wrote: post #238
FabHK wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric engines are already very efficient (particularly compared to internal combustion). If you go from 90% to 95% efficiency, you don't save much in terms of battery. ETA: Internal combustion engines half a century ago had an efficiency of 20%, now they're at 40%. That cuts the fuel you need to carry in half. Electric engines are near 100%, and as I said, going from 90% to 95% efficiency cuts required battery by…

Going from 90% to 95% efficiency you're halving the thermal loses, thus reducing the need for cooling by half. It's a big deal. Same with going from 99% to 99.5% efficiency. It still reduces the cooling needed by half.

I was responding to

> I think the cited weight loss comes from energy efficiency gains leading to less battery capacity needed.

So, no, the efficiency gains of electrical engines do not lead to significantly less battery capacity needed.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#350

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

engineer_22 wrote: post #111

I am speculating but here might be reasons axial flux motors have advantage over radial flux motors: 1) torque: torque = applied force x length of the lever. Because the radial flux rotor must fit inside the stator, therefore radius adjacent to the stator, therefore radius radial rotor radius. 2) space efficiency: in a radial flux motor you have 1 rotor, the coils arranged so that one end of the coil's magnetic field…

Think of the motor as a barrel and you can decide whether you put the magnets covering the barrel walls or covering the top and bottom, and your goal is to have the most magnet surface. At short barrel lengths, you get more magnet surface if you cover the top and bottom instead of the walls.

The area of the top+bottom is (2 * pi * radius * radius)

The area of the wall is (2 * pi * radius * length)

For them to have equal magnet area, you need length to be equal to the radius, which is bad. That makes your motor really thick. In the axial design, you can make the motor thin and still have the same magnet area as before, so your motor now weighs a lot less.

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