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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#341

Post by throwaway85825 »

ksd482 wrote: post #271
arjie wrote: post #31

This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up…

Change is the only constant. Nothing lasts forever. Good times will come and go and so would bad times. I think as humans we are used to small time frames which are proportional to our own lifetime. But the world: say climate, population, geology etc. moves at a much different cycle, if at all you can call it a cycle since none of the iterations are exactly the same. So the lesson is this: change is coming. Change wi…

Embrace negative change?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#342

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Avicebron wrote: post #324
tpholland wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland does not have a homogenous population, and to a reasonable person who has travelled in Switzerland I think this is an insane thing to be defending. A significant proportion of the population (certainly for Europe) do not even share a common first language. Significant proportions sit on different sides of the reformation which is again a big deal for Europe. etc

Homogeneous isn't likely the correct word. Shared cultural norms and "harmonious" is often more accurately what people describe when the call a country "homogeneous".

> what people describe when the call a country "homogeneous"

The Nordic countries were historically ethnically homogenous. Switzerland has been a multi-ethnic place since like the Helvetii were being picked on by Caesar.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#343

Post by JumpCrisscross »

throwaway85825 wrote: post #305
Telemakhos wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first time I was in Switzerland was 1985, and even then, I would not call it "homogenous." The people at the time spoke French, German, Italian, and Romanisch. Switzerland is an excellent example of the "harmonious" rather than "homogenous": it manages to integrate people from four linguistic groups into a well-ordered society.

Homogeneous in the modern use of the word.

> Homogeneous in the modern use

What does it mean if it includes heterogenous populations from linguistic, historic, religious and even cultural backgrounds?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#344

Post by kakacik »

tempay wrote: post #310
rayiner wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth). Is that true? Switzerland's foreign-born population was under 5% around WWII. Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then?

In 1910 the foreign-born population was 14.7% and the drop around WWII was caused by other factors. Much of the industrialisation and banking industry was driven by immigrants. Arguably the wealth of today is the product of managing to avoid the worst of WWII and profiting from Switzerland's "neutrality" but that's an entire conversation by itself.

Well they were neutral, its just most folks, even otherwise smart ones, don't like true neutral behavior if it doesn't actually favor their side, hence such 'smart' snarky remarks I can see all the time, by people feeling they know history. Swiss accepted everybody, hundreds of thousands of refugees too, some parts even when it became obvious they will all face starvation since they were completely encircled by axis. Private banks accepted everybody's money, just like every global bank did before and after the war.

They secretly helped allies - check Campione d'Italia story for example. Thats very far from neutral behavior. And so on. But most people don't want to know facts, they want simple black & white stories.

It continues till today - they are officially neutral but look at their moves ie against russia during Ukraine war. Completely aligned with west (well apart from US which has top brass collaborating with their sworn mortal enemy). Look how their army looks like - 100% compatibility with NATO, 0% with russia or anybody else. They picked their side, they just don't boast around it, actions speak more than 1000 words.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#345

Post by izacus »

FabCH wrote: post #126

One interesting point for me is that, IMHO, the propaganda on the „no“ side wad _abysmal_. The counter arguments are awful and they are presented awfully and not even in such high quantity as you would expect. I think it has a good chance of passing just because of that. And then political shitf***y will begin with „we don’t know how to turn this into law!“, which is not good for the basis of democracy…

I'm sure blaming the "propaganda" will help you about as much as it helps Americans after voting for their anti immigration party nonsense.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#346

Post by selfmodruntime »

idiotsecant wrote: post #226
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not what that means.

Thats exactly what that means. The UK did the thing you want to do and had a bad outcome because they didn't do it right. The true and best and correct way to get it done of course would have none of those bad outcomes.

You're using that fallacy wrong.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#347

Post by throwaway85825 »

joe_mamba wrote: post #236
throw-the-towel wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what did Romania experience?

Banks, energy, telecom, defence, oil & gas companies had to be sold to French, German and Austrian companies for below market value, so those countries would lift their veto. Same with joining NATO TBF. We had to buy some overpriced shoddy used F-16 from the US with a lot of miles on the clock, for the same price of brand new Swedish Gripens just so the US would accepts us in NATO. So if history does indeed repeat it…

Purchase price in jet deals is never straightforward because every deal is different. Variables could include: training (school + flight hours), weapons, contracted maintenance, spares, airfield infrastructure upgrades, engine overhaul etc. The only real way to compare is cost per flight hour.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#348

Post by kuerbel »

bapo wrote: post #146

Swiss here and able to vote. In fact, just posted my voting letter today, before taking a 1h bike ride through the biggest city in Switzerland, having lots of space and freedom biking around in our beautiful city. When taking the train to my parents house, I pass several farms and landly smaller cities. Alot of free space in between those, train mostly has spare seats, depending on rush hour timings. There usually ar…

Also swiss here. So many people seem to think that this is about refugees. Wrong. It's about Europeans. Mostly Germans. They are educated and highly skilled and for some swiss, that's a problem. They blame them for not finding a job or an appartement. Just read the comments on inside paradeplatz, you can translate with any llm, on a post about the referendum. A subset of the swiss Middle class has decided that they don't like competition, they want them gone. Of course they themselves are never the problem, the german with a middle management position is however, because quote "they are only hiring other Germans".

Also voted no of course.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#349

Post by karmakurtisaani »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #259
idiotsecant wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats exactly what that means. The UK did the thing you want to do and had a bad outcome because they didn't do it right. The true and best and correct way to get it done of course would have none of those bad outcomes.

> UK did the thing you want to do The UK invoked Article 50. It didn’t have to, but it chose to because Britain. There is no world in which Switzerland is the party that tears up all of its EU agreements. If someone says that’s a bad dog and I say no, that’s a cat, that’s not an example of No True Scotsman, it’s a category error.

Free movement is at the heart of the EU project. You start restricting that and the EU will tear up the agreements. We saw this already some 10 years ago when a similar vote passed, and EU stopped a lot of collaborations with the Swiss.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#350

Post by philipallstar »

Teever wrote: post #327
tpholland wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland does not have a homogenous population, and to a reasonable person who has travelled in Switzerland I think this is an insane thing to be defending. A significant proportion of the population (certainly for Europe) do not even share a common first language. Significant proportions sit on different sides of the reformation which is again a big deal for Europe. etc

I think that it's pretty obvious that the user that you're responding to is using the term 'homogenous' as a euphemism for "white"

I'm not - not everything is about race. That's a pretty basic lesson that World War 2 taught us, that you should have learned.
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