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Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

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Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#341

Post by jleyank »

philistine wrote: post #322
mmastrac wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clear it's a pandering to the provincial government base, and has zero legitimacy. This all stems from a boneheaded move to unify the right in Alberta to prevent another NDP leadership term - that term being something that actually did our province some good. We've unfortunately been putting up with these leaders doing this sort of thing too long and let the rural part of this province dictate far too much. FWIW…

It’s the British Tories’ Brexit playbook to a T. Remember that David Cameron was cold on Europe, but opposed to leaving the EU yet insisted on having a referendum to stop the far right from stealing his voters. It was the ok I’ll ask you to stop the discussion once and for all . It’s a plan that Cameron completely bungled, ruining his personal reputation, his party’s, and his country’s. I dread the consequences for t…

Well, if Alberta separates, the federal opposition evaporates. The opposition leader can run for Alberta pm. And Canada might never have a Conservative government again. Alberta has no coast, so exporting or importing goes by air or via Canada or the us. And when oil prices return to normal, they suffer big income losses.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#342

Post by transcriptase »

philistine wrote: post #318
transcriptase wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AB sees, correctly, an inordinate amount of tax per capita go out for the privilege of policies intended to kneecap that region's development. Not only that, but the Feds typically use their outsized tax revenue from Alberta to “invest” in Quebec to buy votes via propping up unviable businesses, subsidies, outsized proportion of public sector jobs, and federal spending in general.

Hey, the little old lie that Québec, which does get an outsized proportion of the political attention, gets an outsized proportion of the federal money, which it doesn’t. You can find many examples of specific programs where Québec gets the federal government’s money in incredible amounts. But you add all these programs together and you still come up short per person compared to Ontario. Why? The Southern Ontario car…

The only possible way to come to a conclusion as wrong as yours is by looking at gross instead of net federal spending by province.

When you consider the tiny detail of actually contributing to federal finances, in the past 20 years alone Quebec has received ~360 billion more than it contributed, whereas Ontario has received ~232 billion LESS than it contributed.

Nearly half a trillion difference between the two, and nothing to do with the auto industry whatsoever.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#343

Post by xethos »

nickff wrote: post #202
bawolff wrote: post #183

As an albertan this feels like desperate pandering to a tiny vocal minority to distract from real issues. Almost nobody wants this.

As a non-Albertan, this seems like a great bargaining ploy to get some leverage against the Federal Government, just like Quebec did. Most political parties in Canada seem to ignore and exploit the West most of the time, whereas they treat Quebec (transfer payments) and the maritimes (oil revenues and employment insurance) much more thoughtfully.

[dead]

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#344

Post by vkou »

8note wrote: post #241
bfeist wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Former Albertan here. Alberta even griped about unfair treatment when their conservative party had a majority in Ottawa for almost a decade. It’s just what people have learned to say.

there's no reason to call it not a culture. especially when theres a matching culture in texas, and there's constant travel back and forth between the two, both for the oil-men and the cowboys

A national identity needs to stand for something. It can't just be defined as 'we hate Ontario and the federal libs and want to become an American gas station'.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#345

Post by yibg »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #268
ryandrake wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The huge problem is that geographical borders don't nicely line up with cultural/ethnic/attitude borders. Let's say you let a province (or US state) secede over political/cultural issues. What happens to all of the people who don't want to go along for the ride? They're now at a huge risk. Those dissenters might even be persecuted or, at worst, cleansed, depending on the laws of the new seceded country. So then you s…

> Let's say you let a province (or US state) secede over political/cultural issues. What happens to all of the people who don't want to go along for the ride? Well, thats politics? The people proposing this are supposed to be considering that. And the people in that position are supposed to be considering that. Every day there are votes with outcomes people dont want to go along with the ride for. But they do, or the…

In this case though it's a conflicting view. Let's say 40% of the province don't want to be separated, so they vote to rejoin canada (or form their own thing). Does the now independent Alberta allow it? If not, then why are they allowed to split from Canada? If they do, now this opens up the door for a infinite amount of splits.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#346

Post by 05 »

foepys wrote: post #231
d_burfoot wrote: post #211

Many commenters seem to be appealing to an almost religious defense of present political borders. That attitude is untenable: there is nothing sacred about national boundaries, they are mere political artifacts like rules, regulations, tax codes, etc. If the people want to change them, they absolutely have the right to do so. https://unifixion.substack.com/p/political-boundaries-are-no...

Russia is currently placing Russian citizens in the occupied parts of Ukraine exactly for this reason. If there will ever be a vote whether the Donbas Oblast or the Luhansk Oblast want to rejoin Ukraine, you can bet the vote will be pro Russia.

That vote happened in 2022.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_annexation_referendums_in...

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#347

Post by burnt-resistor »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #192
brightball wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A vote should end up showing that to be the case at least.

That's what they said about Brexit. 52% of the population voted yes in a single election, and the rest got dragged along for a multi-year ride. Current polls put support for the decision at 31%, but it's too late.

Because of a well-funded manufacturing consent PR campaign that activated ethnonationalist sentiment.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#348

Post by burnt-resistor »

harwoodr wrote: post #186

It has been my experience that people always seem to want simple solutions to complex problems. The result is that the details of how complex those problems are get ignored or their impact is represented in a diminished way. In this case currency, debt, indigenous rights/claims and existing legislation are some examples of what is being glossed over and ignored.

Yep. People shout "term limits" as a "good" panacea not realizing this gets rid of good, clean, wise career politicians too. If the desire is to remove worse politicians, use primaries or change the law to recall such ones individually.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#349

Post by scrubs »

d_burfoot wrote: post #211

Many commenters seem to be appealing to an almost religious defense of present political borders. That attitude is untenable: there is nothing sacred about national boundaries, they are mere political artifacts like rules, regulations, tax codes, etc. If the people want to change them, they absolutely have the right to do so. https://unifixion.substack.com/p/political-boundaries-are-no...

>If the people want to change them, they absolutely have the right to do so

Not so fast. They are in a union with other provinces ergo they have a say.

If nonetheless in some asinine way they secede, will they take their portion of Canada's debt, and other liabilities?

Won't all other provinces require them to negotiate a border, security, and trade policy? Surely they can't expect to be separate yet equal to BC or even the NWT?

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#350

Post by scrubs »

gamblor956 wrote: post #329
hash872 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but there are some logistical issues here- let's say Alberta votes to secede and this is somehow legally viable. All of the Albertan voters who didn't want to secede- including the native tribes- could then by your rules vote to secede from Alberta and join back to Canada. It'd be a mess. Towns and counties would split themselves in half, and so on. What would happen if a landlocked town within Alberta wants to r…

It is legally viable. Canada passed a law allowing this after Quebec tried to secede. It lays out the procedures for how the separation would occur.

Ah i forgot that.. that was dumb on fed Canada's part
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