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Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools

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Re: Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools

#341

Post by soco »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #232
pirates wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your kids are accessing things they know they shouldn’t, and you know they’re doing it anyway, is that it? We’re at an impasse? I really don’t want to tell anyone how to parent, but I’ll say that if I did what you described I would have been punished and/or grounded, because I knew the rules, and I knew I was breaking them.

What you're describing, combined with the sort of state provided access being described, seems like it would incentivize the child learning how to lie and hide things more effectively. It's absurd that the school would facilitate such broad and directionless access to the internet outside of the parent's supervision. It's directly undermining them.

And how's the parent punishing them not incentivizing the same behaviour of lying and hiding more effectively? If you want something done on all levels, you need regulation on all levels - any hole will be exploited, and kids don't have such a thing as "responsibility" developed yet.

Re: Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools

#342

Post by soco »

iamnothere wrote: post #275
jonhohle wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, that’s not how addiction works. It’s hard to punish addiction out of anyone. Different kids have different nature and nurture, and for some kids, consequences don’t matter. I would have judged parent’s in this situation before becoming one. It’s humbling and builds empathy. What do you do when punishment doesn’t work? When therapy doesn’t work? When strict control doesn’t work? When there is no remorse…

It sounds like you should exercise your right as a parent to choose a different school that is more in line with your values, instead of attempting to force your values on everyone. Fortunately many states are experimenting with school vouchers and other programs to help parents choose alternatives. It has some downsides (some public schools are having trouble adapting and special ed is an issue) but it may help with…

Serious question: how do you get your kid(s) to another school? Add an hour of travel time every day?

Re: Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools

#343

Post by throwthrowuknow »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #239
throwthrowuknow wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These systems won’t work any better than identification requirements for alcohol and tobacco or anything else. Maybe you didn’t know anyone who drank or smoked when you were a teenager but they are pretty widespread even when parents aren’t negligent. Systems like the proposed ones will be even easier for kids to find a way around. I’m somewhat in favour of these foolish attempts at control because they always drive…

I agree that the recent craze about internet ID checks are foolish but your example falls on its face. ID checks to purchase goods at a physical location are actually quite effective. They don't achieve perfect compliance but that's not a fatal flaw (or even necessarily any flaw at all despite what people might say).

Disagree completely, they were easily bypassed and I think they’re probably more easily bypassed today.

Re: Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools

#344

Post by pocksuppet »

maccard wrote: post #240
pocksuppet wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox forks are available, and will probably last long than Mozilla.

And exist because of the amount of work Mozilla does in keeping the browser up to date.

How many Firefox developers are actual Mozilla employees?

Re: Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools

#345

Post by krageon »

Fnoord wrote: post #329
mort96 wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, some people are misguided and think age verification can be done in a way that isn't the death of privacy and anonymity online.

Which is true. Irma/Yivi [1] in NL/BE proves that to be the case. But it always works with a trusted third party. The client, after confirming auth with the human, generates a unique key for the platform. The platform asks the trusted third party to verify this key, and then a scope is defined. For example: 'is this person 18+?' the response to the platform is then 'Yes' or 'No'. [1] https://yivi.app

The third party is never trustworthy. Such a system is the death of all things good in effect - it makes a single party very attractive to compromise. Compromise is so easy in practice that imagining a group of people is preventing it at any kind of scale is purely magical thinking.

Re: Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools

#346

Post by Saline9515 »

therealpygon wrote: post #260
Saline9515 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Being able to parent" is something you don't know about before you have your first child, and each child increases exponentially the difficulty. You can manage ok the first one and be overwhelmed when the second one is born. Also not everyone is a trust fund kid that works at a FAANG: people get sick, lose jobs, divorce, change homes, and so on. I'm really happy that you found the perfect antifragile optimum in your…

love that not having kids when you can’t actually afford your own existence at that time is a hot take that no one could know in advance that they shouldn’t do. Also love that I SPECIFICALLY called out your argument, almost like you couldn’t even finish reading before needing to get in your super well thought response. That’s sarcasm, figured I’d make sure it was clear since the reading thing is up in the air.

I think that you should try to have kids (plural) before trying to make grand and contemptuous theories about parents.

Re: Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools

#347

Post by Saline9515 »

therealpygon wrote: post #260
Saline9515 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Being able to parent" is something you don't know about before you have your first child, and each child increases exponentially the difficulty. You can manage ok the first one and be overwhelmed when the second one is born. Also not everyone is a trust fund kid that works at a FAANG: people get sick, lose jobs, divorce, change homes, and so on. I'm really happy that you found the perfect antifragile optimum in your…

love that not having kids when you can’t actually afford your own existence at that time is a hot take that no one could know in advance that they shouldn’t do. Also love that I SPECIFICALLY called out your argument, almost like you couldn’t even finish reading before needing to get in your super well thought response. That’s sarcasm, figured I’d make sure it was clear since the reading thing is up in the air.

I think that you should try to have kids (plural) before trying to make grand and contemptuous theories about parents.

All of the people who say you should have kids if $X... will be quite happy in their old days to have the other irresponsible parents' children to wipe their ass and bring them food in the fridge.

Re: Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools

#348

Post by Saline9515 »

therealpygon wrote: post #260
Saline9515 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Being able to parent" is something you don't know about before you have your first child, and each child increases exponentially the difficulty. You can manage ok the first one and be overwhelmed when the second one is born. Also not everyone is a trust fund kid that works at a FAANG: people get sick, lose jobs, divorce, change homes, and so on. I'm really happy that you found the perfect antifragile optimum in your…

love that not having kids when you can’t actually afford your own existence at that time is a hot take that no one could know in advance that they shouldn’t do. Also love that I SPECIFICALLY called out your argument, almost like you couldn’t even finish reading before needing to get in your super well thought response. That’s sarcasm, figured I’d make sure it was clear since the reading thing is up in the air.

I think that you should try to have kids (plural) before trying to make grand and contemptuous theories about parents.

All of the people who say you should have kids if $X... will be quite happy in their old days to have the other irresponsible parents' children to wipe their ass and bring them food in the fridge. I really hope that public pensions get scrapped for this exact reason.

Re: Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools

#349

Post by palata »

riknos314 wrote: post #291
palata wrote: post #273

> Rather than age-gating technologies like VPNs, we believe that regulators should address the root causes of online harm by holding platforms to account Honest question: if you tell Pornhub "now you will be fined heavily if you let 10-year old kids access porn", won't Pornhub implement some kind of age verification? How else would the platform "address the root cause"?

Age gating the VPN age gates (pseudo-anonymous) access to 100% of the content on the internet. Regardless of whether or not you agree with it, age gating only the porn subset of the internet is a much smaller restriction.

I didn't say that age gating VPNs was the solution. I just doubt that the platforms themselves can address the problem in a desirable way.

Re: Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools

#350

Post by palata »

1shooner wrote: post #285
palata wrote: post #273

> Rather than age-gating technologies like VPNs, we believe that regulators should address the root causes of online harm by holding platforms to account Honest question: if you tell Pornhub "now you will be fined heavily if you let 10-year old kids access porn", won't Pornhub implement some kind of age verification? How else would the platform "address the root cause"?

You're asking if verified user accounts on a porn site are more or less invasive than the government banning or restricting access to VPNs?

I don't think so, no. I'm asking if it is a good idea to ask the government to delegate the addressing of the problem to the platforms.

For instance, the government could provide privacy-preserving age verification and mandate that those platforms use it to check the age, and at the same time not ban VPNs.

Maybe (I am asking) it would make it harder for kids to access social media and porn in general, but it would not make it impossible (they could use a VPN). But I don't think we need to make it impossible for social media and I don't think we can make it impossible for porn:

* For social media, we just need it annoying enough that most kids don't bother using them. I feel like social media are a problem for kids mostly when (almost) all kids have access, because it is difficult to explain to your kid why they should be left apart.

* For porn, there are many ways to access it, it's impossible to entirely block it. And I am not convinced that it is a good thing to make it super illegal. Making it slightly less accessible so that it's not one URL away from the kids, though, may not be so terrible?

We do that kind of compromise for many other things: it's impossible to prevent kids from smoking cigarettes. Still we try to prevent it. I feel like sometimes it's okay to compromise, instead of fighting for all or nothing.

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