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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#341

Post by ryandrake »

alkonaut wrote: post #307
Aurornis wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does it though? I mean by "algorithm" in this context we mean "personalized algorithm meant to maximize engagement and retention". I addressed that in the second half of my comment already. But yes, HN qualifies as a site that displays by algorithm. If you mean personalized recommendation algorithm then it’s important to call that out. The last thing we want is regulation so broad that it catches every site that ra…

No one _ever_ even considers "algorithms" in the CS sense here (such as "sorting"), and even bringing that notion up would be deliberately dumbing down the discussion (yet it keeps happening in this thread over-and-over-again because people are for some reason very "well ackshually sorting is an algorithm"). "Algorithm" in this context is very clear what it is. It is not what the word means in Computer Science or in…

I think we need a different word, so that Computer Science grads stop getting wrapped around this axle. We're obviously not talking about Quicksort when we're talking about social media algorithms and other recommendation/discovery algorithms. Heck if I know what that word would be.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#342

Post by yieldcrv »

jrflo wrote: post #118

I heard someone on a podcast call social media algorithms "the modern-day cigarette" and that really resonated with me. These companies know their product is addictive and bad for users, but they keep pushing it anyways. Like cigarettes, it's bad for everyone, not just kids. I made an algorithm blocker for Safari because of that and it's actually crazy how much more pleasant social media is if you don't have recommen…

I think this is even more applicable, because many people younger than me do regulate their social media use, taking "detoxes" or having a more limited use of it altogether, and they are more likely to have a social circle that reinforces that

It reminds me of how I have never been tempted to use a cigarette or any nicotine product and view them as nasty, while me being a little kid telling an addicted adult "you know, those are bad for you" was met with a shrug or I can quit any time, as their social circle and support system was based on using it

Makes me think my generation is cooked when it comes to social media use

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#344

Post by freejazz »

Aurornis wrote: post #105
another-dave wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Goes away, or is liable for the content promoted to the frontpage under the OP's take? But I'd agree, that it's personalisation rather than just curation that's the issue. I think even requiring sites to have a "bring your own algo" version (and where ads are targetted to the algorithm, rather than the person) would cure a lot of ills. As is, even with something like Spotify where you _are_ paying there's no easy way…

> Goes away, or is liable for the content promoted to the frontpage under the OP's take? Same thing. There is no Hacker News if Y Combinator becomes liable for user submitted content. It’s an obvious backdoor play to make sites go away. If a site becomes liable for content posted, you cannot allow users to post content without having the site review and take responsibility for every comment and every post. The people…

>Same thing. There is no Hacker News if Y Combinator becomes liable for user submitted content.

Why is this assumed to be true?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#345

Post by freejazz »

Aurornis wrote: post #283
andrewjf wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what OOP said. But it’s not my intent to “shut sites down.” I have this view to try to increase diversity of media consumption and break people out of echo chambers. If your business model is so shit you have to exploit weaknesses in human brains to keep people viewing ads and can’t adapt, then that’s your problem. If you have an algorithm whose sole purpose is to “engagement” with your own platform (by…

> I have this view to try to increase diversity of media consumption and break people out of echo chambers. Making sites liable for all user-posted content would do the reverse of this. Every platform that lets people submit content would have to stop doing that, because it’s an impossible liability to manage. You’d have to host your own site. You wouldn’t be able to share anything about it on a social media site bec…

>Every platform that lets people submit content would have to stop doing that, because it’s an impossible liability to manage.

This is a huge assumption that is offered constantly, and always, without any evidence at all.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#346

Post by viktorcode »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #337
viktorcode wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "algorithm" then. I would argue that "sort by date, excluding stuff the user already watched" is already an algorithm.

This is just pedantic. "Algorithm" is obviously shorthand for: a recommendations system that shows me things I didn't explicitly opt into. Compare e.g. Mastodon vs Twitter or Bluesky. The former simply won't show you anything you didn't explicitly subscribe to, and there's no hidden ranking system. The law is not a computer program. It is up to human interpretation. The law merely needs to define the intent, which is…

It is pedantic, and you have to be pedantic when talking about laws and regulations. The vaguely written laws have the tendency to be interpreted in the most restrictive way possible by the executive branch.

> "Algorithm" is obviously shorthand for: a recommendations system that shows me things I didn't explicitly opt into.

In that interpretation that is applicable to any form of broadcast, including TV and radio, driven by the user ratings of their previous programs.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#347

Post by cmrdporcupine »

viktorcode wrote: post #346
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just pedantic. "Algorithm" is obviously shorthand for: a recommendations system that shows me things I didn't explicitly opt into. Compare e.g. Mastodon vs Twitter or Bluesky. The former simply won't show you anything you didn't explicitly subscribe to, and there's no hidden ranking system. The law is not a computer program. It is up to human interpretation. The law merely needs to define the intent, which is…

It is pedantic, and you have to be pedantic when talking about laws and regulations. The vaguely written laws have the tendency to be interpreted in the most restrictive way possible by the executive branch. > "Algorithm" is obviously shorthand for: a recommendations system that shows me things I didn't explicitly opt into. In that interpretation that is applicable to any form of broadcast, including TV and radio, dr…

You haven't seen any proposed law. Just someone's choice of word that got your back up.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#348

Post by NewsaHackO »

freejazz wrote: post #344
Aurornis wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Goes away, or is liable for the content promoted to the frontpage under the OP's take? Same thing. There is no Hacker News if Y Combinator becomes liable for user submitted content. It’s an obvious backdoor play to make sites go away. If a site becomes liable for content posted, you cannot allow users to post content without having the site review and take responsibility for every comment and every post. The people…

>Same thing. There is no Hacker News if Y Combinator becomes liable for user submitted content. Why is this assumed to be true?

If YCombinator has to officially approve every article submitted, then it will become a publisher of a news site, not a social media site. Essentially, it would be a New York Times site with unpaid writers.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#349

Post by charcircuit »

SoftTalker wrote: post #312
Aurornis wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Goes away, or is liable for the content promoted to the frontpage under the OP's take? Same thing. There is no Hacker News if Y Combinator becomes liable for user submitted content. It’s an obvious backdoor play to make sites go away. If a site becomes liable for content posted, you cannot allow users to post content without having the site review and take responsibility for every comment and every post. The people…

I think you could finesse it by saying that on HN, the users submit the content and the users also determine (by voting) what is popular. Ycombinator doesn't promote or bury any particular post with their own algorithms; they don't exercise any editorial review or control. (I don't think that's exactly true today, but it could be). But to the larger point, I would actuall agree that sites should "review and take resp…

And on TikTok users vote what is popular by giving videos watch time. It is no different.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#350

Post by freejazz »

Aurornis wrote: post #120
criddell wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the radio I heard a reporter talking about things China does during school exams. Apparently all schools have exams at the same time and during that period, social media shuts down at night. I forget the exact hours (10pm - 6am maybe). I'm starting to think that would be a great policy in general for everybody. I think they also said AI companies go offline during exam hours, but I may have got that wrong.

Absolutely wild that we’re seeing proposals to shut down parts of the internet and regulate when people can talk to each other on social platforms as a real suggestion on HN. I feel like we’ve completely lost the plot when we’re starting to invite government partial Internet shutdowns as a good idea. This is a totalitarian government play.

As opposed to totalitarian tech overlords?
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