Live data from Hacker News

When Dawkins met Claude – Could this AI be conscious?

unherd.com

341–350 of 450 posts

Re: When Dawkins met Claude – Could this AI be conscious?

#341
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large part of the problem is what you consider consciousness. If you talk about having a subjective experience, then we don't know of any way to prove that even other humans than ourselves have one. We go entirely by assumptions based on physical similarity and our ability to communicate. But we have no evidence that physical similarity is a prerequisite, nor that it is sufficient. So the bigger trap is to assume t…

> If you talk about having a subjective experience, then we don't know of any way to prove that even other humans than ourselves have one. We go entirely by assumptions based on physical similarity and our ability to communicate. The reason we grant consciousness (and, relatedly, moral value) to other humans is unfortunately nowhere so thought out. We grant consciousness because we are forced to: if I don't, the othe…

I agree that if we were to go around and openly treat others as effectively NPC's then, yes, people would react very negatively. But that is very different from understanding that we can't prove that others are not. We still need to treat others as if they are conscious, because they will act that way whether they are or not.

But understanding we can't know ought to at least give us some humility with respect to assuming we can know whether other entities that are not human are conscious or not.

I think we mostly agree, in that I absolutely think you're right people will choose to accept or deny this based on convenience and value.

Re: When Dawkins met Claude – Could this AI be conscious?

#342

On the one hand I'm not sure Dawkins has read/thought enough about how LLMs actually work. I'm getting the impression he doesn't fully appreciate or is somehow forgetting that it's a text completion algorithm with a vast number of parameters and that even if the patterns of learned parameter tunings are not really comprehendible, the architecture was very deliberately designed. But on the other hand his thoughts at t…

The brain uses a lot less energy than an LLM, so most probably it is something completely different. Maybe consciousness is a byproduct of the architecture of the brain, so there is no version of a humanoid with no consciousness.

Re: When Dawkins met Claude – Could this AI be conscious?

#343
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large part of the problem is what you consider consciousness. If you talk about having a subjective experience, then we don't know of any way to prove that even other humans than ourselves have one. We go entirely by assumptions based on physical similarity and our ability to communicate. But we have no evidence that physical similarity is a prerequisite, nor that it is sufficient. So the bigger trap is to assume t…

“If you talk about having a subjective experience, then we don't know of any way to prove that even other humans than ourselves have one.“ Wittgenstein kinda blows this burden of proof apart. Just because you can doubt something like the subjectivity of others to the point where it needs to be reconstructed from proofs, that’s an issue with the doubting experiment more than the subjectivity. Others possessing Subject…

Well, I am not certain whether it is the case. There is no need to be certain about that to treat other people the same way, because whether or not I believe they have a subjective experience has zero impact on how they react to stimuli.

It does, however, have relevance when we consider whether or not other, non-human, entities can have consciousness: If we can't know what consciousness actually mean with respect to humans, that is a strong argument for not insisting that we know whether or not other entities are conscious.

If we then choose to treat other humans purely on the assumption that they e.g. do feel distress the same way, we ought to consider that we do not what the pre-requisite to reach a level of awareness to feel distress is.

Re: When Dawkins met Claude – Could this AI be conscious?

#345

We don't even know what the pre-requisites for consciousness are so we have no way of knowing. LLMs have emergent behavior that is reminiscent of language forming brains, but they're also missing a lot of properties that are probably necessary? Mainly continuity over time, more integrated memory, and a better sense of space and time? Brains use the rhythm and timing of neuronal firings, and the length of axons effect…

Clive Wearing's memory lasts for less than 30 seconds, so he has no memory of being awake before now . He is permanently in a state of feeling like he has just woken up, observing his surroundings for the first time. Clive Wearing's mind has no time continuity and basically zero memory integration. Is he not conscious? There's interviews with the guy. Where on the scale [No mind Clive Wearing Healthy human brain] wou…

[deleted]

Re: When Dawkins met Claude – Could this AI be conscious?

#346
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the latent space of the LLM when it chooses each token is 10s or even hundreds of GB for each word that it chooses. It's not really useful to look at LLMs from the perspective of its prediction head which is a very small part of the model.

Except that latent space does not change in response to new information, something that thoughts famously do. If you read a book that captures the author's thoughts, disagree, and write an eloquent arguments to the author, you might change the author's mind. But you will not change the "book's thoughts" on the subject. Latent spaces are maps of thoughts other people have had, not the thoughts themselves.

This gets a bit tricky. Over very long task contexts (1M tokens) or with prompt compression (10s of millions of tokens) the model can alter its priors based on updated evidence. This form of knowledge based learning is not necessarily robust, but demonstrably does occur.

Re: When Dawkins met Claude – Could this AI be conscious?

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can such an algorithm reason about itself in relation to others? No, but an LLM doesn't do that either. An LLM is an algorithm to generate text output which can simulate how humans describe reasoning about themselves in relation to others. Humans do that by using words to describe what they internally experienced. LLMs do it by calculating the statistical weight of linguistic symbols based on a composite of human-g…

> LLMs do it by ... That they do it at all is the point and is what separates then from MP3 encoding algorithms. The "how" doesn't seem to me to be as important as you're suggesting. You asked a hypothetical above about a different algorithm and now we've ascertained the reasons why that was reductive. > LLMs never experienced ... What is experience beyond taking input from the world around you and holding an underst…

> The "how" doesn't seem to me to be as important as you're suggesting.

When the question is understanding the true nature of what is occurring (eg "is an LLM conscious"), the "how it works" is critical. For example, the 1700s "Mechanical Turk" automaton which appeared to play chess (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_Turk). Royal courts and their advisors accepted that it played chess after glancing at the complex gearing inside the cabinet. Had they taken the time to examine how the internal gearing worked in greater detail, they would have arrived at a more accurate understanding of the device's true nature.

> That they do it at all is the point

True in some cases but not others, especially when external appearances can be deceiving. The Mechanical Turk was: 1. Designed to deceive, and 2. Not able to mechanistically play chess. Conversely, LLMs were not intentionally designed to deceive but they can still be misleading because they're a novel system which: 1. Manipulates linguistic symbols in highly complex ways, and 2. Can instantly access vast quantities of detailed information pre-trained into it's relational database that's been indexed across thousands of dimensions. And these abilities are not only novel but can be highly useful for some real-world tasks. This makes LLMs uniquely challenging for humans to reason about because LLMs are specifically tuned to generate output which closely mirrors the exact ways humans assess intelligence (and consciousness). We couldn't have designed a system to be more ideal at playing Turing's 'Imitation Game' and convincing humans they are human-like if we'd intentionally tried to.

In fact, I've previously described LLMs as accidentally being "the most perfectly deceptive magic trick ever" (while I'm a technologist professionally, I've spent quite few years designing actual magic tricks as a hobby). Designers of magical illusions joke that "the perfect floating lady trick" would actually be able to do useful things like replace a forklift, since it could float anything, anywhere instead of just appearing to violate physics. LLMs actually can really do useful things and replace some human labor but that fact doesn't mean they have all the abilities and traits of humans nor that they internally function in similar ways.

> You asked a hypothetical above...

That wasn't me, it was another poster.

> What is experience beyond taking input from the world around you and holding an understanding of it?

In the view of many leading philosophers of mind (Dennett, Chalmers, Nagle, etc) "Experiencing" is quite a bit more than just sensing, processing and recording. They use the term "Qualia" (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/) which is what they're talking about when they ask "what is it like to be a..." (wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat)? While the philosophical debate around why material reductionism can't explain human consciousness is fascinating, we don't need to go there to understand "what it is like to be an LLM" because we already know the answer: it's not like anything - there is no there there.

First, it's obvious we can't trust what the LLM's textual output says when it's asked "what is it like to be you" because it's an 'imitation machine' trained on 100% human sample text. The algorithms were designed, tuned and tested to generate text output which most plausibly simulates how a composite human would respond to the input (including the invisible system prompt instructing: "You are a Large Language Model, not a human"). We even added a tiny degree of random variability to the processing of the statistical weights because we found that makes the simulation seem a bit more plausibly like what a composite human would say. In short, the 'self-reported' textual output of a system purpose-built to generate plausible human-like textual output can't be trusted any more than a study of pathological liars can trust self-reported data from their study population.

Fortunately, with LLMs we can directly look under the hood at how it works and the entire specialty of Mechanistic Interpretability exists to do exactly that (https://towardsdatascience.com/mechanistic-interpretability-...). So we know with certainty that, despite what they may say, LLMs do not experience qualia in the way that humans and even other mammals do (which we have insight on from 'looking under the biological hood' with fMRI, surgical and brain injury studies).

Then the only question left is whether to redefine "consciousness" in some new way very different from "human consciousness" or "consciousness in mammals" (the only examples we've had until very recently). Personally, I think it makes little sense to radically redefine consciousness to include statistical algorithms running billions of matrix multiplications on a massive database of human-generated text. The term "consciousness", as vague and poorly defined as it is, was created to refer to human, or at least biological, consciousness. I'd be fine with creating a new term to refer to whatever novel traits of LLMs someone wants to quantify but they should leave the term "consciousness" out of it because the poor thing's already barely useful and stretching it further will just leave it broken and devoid of any meaning.

Re: When Dawkins met Claude – Could this AI be conscious?

#348
post #160
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've followed Dawkins' trajectory, I don't think it's clear that he's "otherwise of sound mind" anymore. He's had some very strange output on biological gender, where he tries to handwave away the existence of intersex people. And he's a biologist.

"Intersex" is a misleading umbrella term for a whole bunch of different DSDs, each of which is 100% specific to one biological sex. And I don't think I've ever seen the term "biological gender"; about the only thing gender proponents seem to agree on is that it's NOT biological.

Biological gender is the inconsistent "sex=gender" conception that cranks and conservative grifters operate under.

I'm not sure what a "gender proponent" is, but Dawkins has come out and written some pseudo-scientific bullshit about there only being two sexes/genders, and that everyone fits nearly into one of them. Which is patently false. Intersex people are a real phenomenon, and are not clearly classifiable into either sex. Dawkins has made a fool of himself by claiming that a real biological phenomenon can simply be ignored when conceiving a theory of sex (and gender).

In other words, Dawkins has gone off the deep end. He doesn't really have credibility as a researcher or public intellectual. He's with the grifters now.

This embarrassing conservative grift is part of an anthology filled with drivel from other grifters: The War on Science", edited by sex pest Lawrence Krauss [1].

[1] https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-War-on-Science/Da...

Re: When Dawkins met Claude – Could this AI be conscious?

#349

It's easy, and very tempting to dismiss this sort of thing. But given how little we know about the human brain, let alone consciousness, I don't see how we can be confident that LLMs aren't conscious. I've had a lot of thoughts and conversations over the years that changed my mind on what consciousness likely requires. One was the realization that a purely mechanical computer can, in principle simulate the laws of ph…

Maybe Roger Penrose has some meaningful Input https://youtu.be/iTVN6tFknCg

regarding …“One was the realization that a purely mechanical computer can, in principle simulate the laws …“

As far as I unterstood,there is no theory of quantum gravity and therefore this is not being simulated on a computer. I think he makes other arguments.

So you cannot say for sure that you can simulate a human brain on a computer

Re: When Dawkins met Claude – Could this AI be conscious?

#350

It's easy, and very tempting to dismiss this sort of thing. But given how little we know about the human brain, let alone consciousness, I don't see how we can be confident that LLMs aren't conscious. I've had a lot of thoughts and conversations over the years that changed my mind on what consciousness likely requires. One was the realization that a purely mechanical computer can, in principle simulate the laws of ph…

You could push the analogy even further and run the thought experiment where every forward pass through an LLM could in principle be done on pen and paper, distributed throughout all humanity. Sure it would take a long time, but the output would be exactly the same. We’ve just shifted the implementation from GPU to scribbling things down on paper. If you want to assert that LLMs are “conscious” then you would have to…

faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzPapers/USAconscious-140721.htm https://share.google/6Qec5T0TKeJVdUBiB

In the same vein, is American Society already not conscious? The only difference is that it doesn't output a coherent stream of words that individuals can understand. It does however, act and react on its level (a nation state)

Post reply on HN