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Coding agents could make free software matter again

gjlondon.com

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Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#341
post #104

The debate in the comment section here really boils down to: upstream freedom vs downstream freedom. Copyleft licenses like GPL/Apache mandate upstream freedom: Upstream has the "freedom" to use anything downstream, including anything written by a corporation. Non-copyleft FOSS licenses like MIT/BSD are about downstream freedom, which is more of a philosophically utilitarian view, where anyone who receives the softwa…

What you call 'downstream freedom' isn't very downstream. The real downstream is the end user, who should have the right to know what the software is doing on their computer, to recompile the software so it works on their machine with the software that is already on it, to make changes to the software so it can serve their needs.

Right, well, I'm using the word "downstream" for lack of a more precise term. I'm NOT using the "normal" open-source definition of "downstream". Does that help clarify what I mean?

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#342
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you are misinterpreting the ruling. Remember that a copyright claim must inherently argue that copies of the work are being made. To that end, the case analyzes multiple "copies" alleged to have been made. 1) "Copies used to train specific LLMs", for which the ruling is: > The copies used to train specific LLMs were justified as a fair use. > Every factor but the nature of the copyrighted work favors this r…

> How could you then argue that the original source from which copies were made was obtained illicitly when the terms of downloading the freely available software mandated that they be given a copy? By the license and terms such copies are under. > For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must pass on to the recipients the same freedoms that you received. You must make…

> By the license and terms such copies are under.

Which clause of the GPL requires the receiver of GPL code to agree to the terms of the GPL before being allowed to receive the source code that they are entitled to under the license? Because that would expressly contradict the first sentence of section 9:

    You are not required to accept this License in order to receive or run a copy of the Program.
Isn't that one of the key points to the GPL? That the provisions of it only apply to you IF you decide to distribute GPL software but that they do not impose any restrictions on the users of the software? Surely you're not suggesting that anyone who has ever seen the source code of a GPLed piece of software is permanently barred from contributing to or writing similar software under a non-GPL license simply by the fact that they received the GPLed source code.

> If you copy the GPL code, and it inherits the license, as the terms say it

> does, then you must also copy the license.

> The GPL does not give you an unfettered right to copy, it comes with terms

> and conditions protecting it under contract law. Thus, you must follow the > contract.

I agree that the GPL does not give you an unfettered right to copy. But the GPL like all such licenses are still governed by copyright law. And "fair use" is an exception to the copyright laws that allow you to make copies that you are not otherwise authorized to make. No publisher can put additional terms in their book, even if they wrap it in shrinkwrap that denies you the right to use that book for various fair use purposes like quoting it for criticism or parody. The Sony terms and conditions for the Play Station very clearly forbid copying the BIOS or decompiling it. But those terms are null and void when you copy the BIOS and decompile it for making a new emulator (at least in the US) because the courts have already ruled that such use is fair use.

So it is with the GPL. By default you have no right to make copies of the software at all. The GPL then grants you additional rights you normally wouldn't have under copyright law, but only to the extent that when exercising those rights, you comply with the terms of the GPL. But "Fair Use" then goes beyond that and says that for certain purposes, certain types and amounts of copies can be made, regardless of what rights the publisher does or does not reserve. This would be why the GPL specifically says:

    This License acknowledges your rights of fair use or other equivalent, as provided by copyright law.
Fair use (and its analogs in other countries) supersede the GPL. And even the GPL FAQ[1] acknowledges this fact:

    Do I have “fair use” rights in using the source code of a GPL-covered program? (#GPLFairUse)
    Yes, you do. “Fair use” is use that is allowed without any special 
    permission. Since you don't need the developers' permission for such use, you 
    can do it regardless of what the developers said about it—in the license or 
    elsewhere, whether that license be the GNU GPL or any other free software 
    license.
[1]: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#GPLFairUse

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#343
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fail. The use is to make trillions of dollars and be maximally disruptive. Fair use has repeatedly been found even in cases where the copies were used for commercial purposes. See Sony v. Connectix for example, where the cloning and disassembly of the PlayStation BIOS for the purposes of making a commercially sold (at retail, in a box) emulator of a then currently sold game console was determined to be fair use. >…

I appreciate the detailed reply and that there’s subtlety here. I read the linked Bartz case. It’s disappointing that it seems limited to only the copying of books into a data set and not the result of training LLM on protected works. This is not the “use” that I was discussing and not very interesting. The plaintiffs didn’t even challenge that the outputs of the LLMs infringe. They judge seems to agree (at least by…

> It’s disappointing that it seems limited to only the copying of books into a data set and not the result of training LLM on protected works. This is not the “use” that I was discussing and not very interesting.

I agree that a ruling on the outputs specifically would have been interesting an instructive, but I disagree with the interpretation that by omission fair use would not apply to those outputs. The outputs were not challenged as the judge notes because the plaintiffs did not allege the outputs of the AI were infringing. The only conclusion we can really draw from this is that the plaintiffs didn't think they could make a good case for the outputs being infringing. Maybe GPL software authors could do so, but clearly these book authors did not think they could. Judge Alsup does note that it's certainly possible for those outputs to be infringing, but that such a case would have to be litigated separately.

And again, this all makes sense to me if you've followed copyright law through the digital age. A xerox machine can be use to create verbatim, clearly infringing copies of works covered by copyright. But that being the case does not mean that making a xerox machine is a violation of copyright, even if you use copyrighted material to test the machine. It does not mean that selling a xerox machine is a violation of copyright, even if you use copyrighted material to demonstrate the capabilities when selling the machine. And it does not mean that every use of a xerox machine is inherently a copyright violation, even if any individual use can be.

Similarly consider CD ripping software (like iTunes) or DVD/BluRay ripping software like Handbrake. I would be comfortable betting that over 90% of all copies made by iTunes or Handbrake are copies of works that the copy maker does not own copyright to (remember the "Rip, Mix, Burn" iTunes commercials?). But that being the case, iTunes CD ripping capabilities and Handbrakes DVD ripping capabilities are not themselves copyright violations, nor is distributing that software, even with instructions for how the end user can use that software to make copies of material that they do not own the copyright for. That this software can enable piracy on a mass scale does not inherently make every use of the software a copyright violation. Whether or not the output of iTunes or Handbrake is "fair use" is and must be litigated on an individual basis. The output is not inherently one or the other.

> The plaintiffs also make really awful arguments about “memorizing” and “learning” that falsely anthropomorphize LLMs. Which the judge shoots down.

> If we’re going to give LLMs the same rights as humans, there’s unlikely to much of an argument.

Judge Alsup goes much further than just "shoot[ing] down" the arguments about memorizing and learning, he also very explicitly says right on page 9:

    To summarize the analysis that now follows, the use of the books at issue to train Claude
    and its precursors was exceedingly transformative and was a fair use under Section 107 of the
    Copyright Act.
and later:

    In short, the purpose and character of using copyrighted works to train LLMs to generate
    new text was quintessentially transformative. Like any reader aspiring to be a writer,
    Anthropic’s LLMs trained upon works not to race ahead and replicate or supplant them — but
    to turn a hard corner and create something different. If this training process reasonably
    required making copies within the LLM or otherwise, those copies were engaged in a
    transformative use.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

data bandwidth limits distributed training under current architectures. really interesting implications if we can make progress on that

What bandwith limits? Im assuming the forward and backward passes have to be done sequentially?

Yes also passing data within each layer

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#345
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw, AIX and to a far lesser extent Solaris still exist. I'm not exactly sure why people are using them (AIX I can maybe understand because "no one got fired for buying IBM" or whatever but there really isn't any excuse to be running Solaris nowadays since ZFS runs on Linux and and 2 of the BSD based systems and oracle seems desperate to let it die)

Solaris in SPARC is the only production UNIX with hardware memory tagging. Something that some security conscious folks care about.

Apple's latest CPUs, the M5 and the A19, have memory tagging.

Probably impractical for most server workloads (so not an alternative to Solaris on SPARC) but worth mentioning.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#348
post #179
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was made redundant recently "due to AI" (questionable) and it feels like my works in some way contributed to my redundancy where my works contributed to the profits made by these AI megacorps while I am left a victim. I think anyone here can understand and even share that feeling. And I agree with your "questionable" - its just the lame HR excuse du jour. My 2c: - AI megacorps aren't the only ones gaining, we all…

> AI megacorps aren't the only ones gaining, we all are. No, no we are not. > the leverage you have to build and ship today is higher than it was five years ago. I don’t want more “leverage to build and ship”, I want to live in a world where people aren’t so disconnected from reality and so lonely they have romantic relationships with a chat window; where they don’t turn off their brains and accept any wrong informat…

[flagged]

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where would they get that ?

Is this a serious question?

How many propriatary solutions do you think will hand over the code for them to train, thats the point that i'm trying to make.

Opensource has provided training data, closed source code not so much. They will have a bad time learning.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a serious question?

How many propriatary solutions do you think will hand over the code for them to train, thats the point that i'm trying to make. Opensource has provided training data, closed source code not so much. They will have a bad time learning.

Um, not all open-source code is GPL. Or even MIT/BSD, for that matter. There's plenty of Creative Commons (CC) code out there to train on. And on top of that, there are reams of public documentation pages that are effectively CC. And more recently, LLMs have shown increased ability things that they weren't explicitly trained on, so if, for example, we can't find a ton of Rust codebases that are open for training, it's not really a big deal.
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