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Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

nytimes.com

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Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#341

Post by m0llusk »

doug_durham wrote: post #338
arcxi wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

amidst this whole AI craze it's illuminating to learn how many programmers secretly hated programming all along

I don't know if it's "hate" rather than "a means to an ends". I love learning new languages, and coding. But it was always a means to an ends. The dopamine hit always came from seeing the project compile and do something.

There are multiple ends in conflict. Code skillfully constructed using abstractions that fit well to the problem space can be extended, maintained, and refactored as necessary to serve customers and markets from high to low level over long periods of time with all the social and industrial change that comes with that. Simply putting in place mechanisms that deliver what is needed now end up unintentionally cutting off future variants, alternative uses, longevity, and robustness all to minimize perceived costs.

And it isn't so much that one approach may be better than another. That is going to depend on context and available resources and more. What we are seeing is the short term being served to the absolute exclusion of thought about the longer term. Maybe if that goes fast and well enough then it will be sufficient, but churning out code bases that endure is a challenge that is only starting to be tested.

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#342

Post by galactus »

barnabee wrote: post #265
dsQTbR7Y5mRHnZv wrote: post #96

> in coding, L.L.M.s take away the drudgery and leave the human, soulful parts to you. I've always hated solving puzzles with my deterministic toolbox, learning along the way and producing something of value at the end. Glad that's finally over so I can focus on the soulful art of micromanaging chatbots with markdown instead.

I like designing data, algorithms, and systems. I like picking the right tools for the job. I like making architectural and user interface (CLI, configuration format, GUI, whatever) decisions. Actually typing code is pretty dull. To the extent that I rarely do it full time (basically only when prototyping or making very simple scripts etc.), even though I love making things. So for me, personally, LLMs are great. I'm…

I think reducing what LLMs do to « typing » is misleading. If it was just typing, you could simply use speech-to-text. But LLMs do far more than that, they shape the code itself. And I think we lose something when we delegate that work to LLMs

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#343

Post by fastforwardius »

jqbd wrote: post #203
fastforwardius wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to remember doing it in SQL (EDIT_DISTANCE) 20ish years ago. While I wouldn't say it worked beautifully, I also didn't need to make a single line of Rust :) also no more than 2 line s of SQL were needed.

And how many years of experience you needed to know what to write, and what if you can replace that time with how long prompting takes?

It's an interesting question.

Years of school (reading, calculus etc) to get to the point of learning basics of set theory. One day to learn basic SQL based on understanding the set theory. Maybe few weeks of using SQL at work for ad hoc queries to be proficient enough (the query itself wasn't really complex).

For the domain itself I was consulting experts to see what matters.

I'm not sure that time it would take to know what to prompt and verify the results is much different.

Fun fact - management decided that SQL solution wasn't enerprisely enough so they hired external consultants to build a system doing essentialy that but in Java + formed an 8 people internal team to guide them. I heard they finished 2 years later with a lot of manual matching.

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#344

Post by alexey-pelykh »

habinero wrote: post #109
kansface wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've generated 250KLoC this week, absolutely no changes in deps or any other shenanigans. I'm not even really trying to optimize my output. I work on plans/proposals with 2 or 3 agents simultaneously in Cursor while one does work, sometimes parallelized. I can't do that in less code and cleaner. I can't do it at all. Don't wait too long.

> I've generated 250KLoC this week It's horrifying, all right, but not in the way you think lol. If you don't understand why this isn't a brag, then my job is very safe.

[dead]

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#345

Post by Ygg2 »

staplers wrote: post #307
barnabee wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like designing data, algorithms, and systems. I like picking the right tools for the job. I like making architectural and user interface (CLI, configuration format, GUI, whatever) decisions. Actually typing code is pretty dull. To the extent that I rarely do it full time (basically only when prototyping or making very simple scripts etc.), even though I love making things. So for me, personally, LLMs are great. I'm…

The assembly line has been mass producing ready-made products for over 100 years and yet product quality, material stability, aesthetic trends, and function design still dominate the purchasing decisions of the general public. Being tapped into fickle human preference and changing utility landscape will be necessary for a long time still. It may get faster and easier to build, but tastemakers and craftsmen still have…

> The assembly line has been mass producing ready-made products for over 100 years and yet product quality, material stability

Luckily if you want stability or quality they are nowhere to be found.

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#346

Post by Ygg2 »

sph wrote: post #310
bluefirebrand wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fools errand We are paid to do the tedious stuff because it is tedious. If we actually ever succeed in automating away the tedious stuff, we're out of work

Don’t you get it? Machine do the tedious work, all we get to do now is the fun part and we can just relax the rest of the day. I am producing 5x as before, my boss is paying me the same salary just for two hours of actual work per day. I have so much more time to pursue my passions. Isn’t the future great?

> I am producing 5x as before, my boss is paying me the same salary just for two hours of actual work per day.

Great. Once your boss notices your actual work has decreased, he'll adjust compensation, increase workload, or both.

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#347

Post by daveguy »

mchaver wrote: post #217
zazibar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think though that the day is coming where I can trust the code it produces and at that point I'll just by writing specs. It's not there yet though. Must be nice to still have that choice. At the company I work for they've just announced they're cancelling all subscriptions to JetBrains, Visual Studio, Windsurf, etc. and forcing every engineer to use Claude Code as a cost-saving measure. We've been told we should b…

I wonder how much cost savings there are in the long term when token prices go up, the average developer's ability to code has atrophied, and the company code bases have turned into illegible slop. I will continue to use LLMs cautiously while working hard to maintain my ability to code in my off time.

You shouldn't have to maintain your ability to code in your off time. Is your company one of those that's requiring AI only coding?

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#348

Post by jodleif »

galactus wrote: post #342
barnabee wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like designing data, algorithms, and systems. I like picking the right tools for the job. I like making architectural and user interface (CLI, configuration format, GUI, whatever) decisions. Actually typing code is pretty dull. To the extent that I rarely do it full time (basically only when prototyping or making very simple scripts etc.), even though I love making things. So for me, personally, LLMs are great. I'm…

I think reducing what LLMs do to « typing » is misleading. If it was just typing, you could simply use speech-to-text. But LLMs do far more than that, they shape the code itself. And I think we lose something when we delegate that work to LLMs

Agreed. Also, it takes time to understand a domain properly- so the innate slowness of coding helps with letting things “simmer” in the back of the mind.

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#349

Post by whiplash451 »

FuckButtons wrote: post #335
dorfsmay wrote: post #260

For me, the biggest shift is people who don't care about local AI. The idea that you can no longer code without paying a tax to one of the billion $ backed company isn't sitting well.

I don’t understand why more people aren’t focused on how to get the benefits of ai but on your own machine. If the last 20 years of software transitioning off of our desktops and into the cloud has taught us anything, it’s that letting corporate entities run the software you rely on end to end gives you: worse software with more bugs, surveillance and subscriptions. Why on earth would you want that for everything you…

Local AI is what people want/need, but centralized AI is where the investors' money is flowing, because a walled garden has always been easier to turn into a cash printer.

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#350

Post by dmd »

Ygg2 wrote: post #345
staplers wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assembly line has been mass producing ready-made products for over 100 years and yet product quality, material stability, aesthetic trends, and function design still dominate the purchasing decisions of the general public. Being tapped into fickle human preference and changing utility landscape will be necessary for a long time still. It may get faster and easier to build, but tastemakers and craftsmen still have…

> The assembly line has been mass producing ready-made products for over 100 years and yet product quality, material stability Luckily if you want stability or quality they are nowhere to be found.

I would generally put “stability” and “quality” as attributes of mass production far more than that of handmade things. Yes, an expert can make a quality product by hand, but MOST handmade things are far more likely to be shoddy. The whole point of mass production was that suddenly you could make a million identical perfect products.
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