Live data from Hacker News

US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov

341–350 of 458 posts

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole concept of intellectual property rights is a social and legal construct designed to promote innovation in an economy. If you don't care about that, then there really isn't any moral or immoral aspect to it. The immorality of it and associating it with stealing was just MPAA propaganda to try to shame people into paying for stuff. If I found some DVD lying on the ground and watched it and I didn't pay for it…

The bedrock of the argument is that you give for what you take. This is very fundamental, not just some capitalist drivel. You'd be hard pressed to find a single level headed individual who could form a coherent argument against it (generally speaking, not just protracted edge cases). Even your most hippie communist commune requires giving in order to receive. People act (many even think) like this doesn't apply to d…

> But producing that digital good costs time and money (anyone on HN care to disagree?)

Not disagree, but it is more nuanced than this I think. I spend a fair amount of money going to movie theaters, usually independent movie theaters but sometimes big ones, to see new releases. As I understand it, the production and funding model relies almost entirely on the box office numbers. I think when dealing with older releases, the waters are much murkier.

I end up seeing new things in person and paying a huge premium to do so. I won't pretend I do it for moral reasons or even strictly to support the creators (although I do it in part to support the independent theater itself). It does keep me from feeling bad for also running a media server, on which maybe 1% of the content is newer than 5 years old, though.

I have almost never bought a physical copy of a movie -- and in my mind the IP holders are usually terrible curators of their own content. Physical media is provided in a horribly limited and anti-consumer format, tied to ephemeral standards and technology and often embedded with advertisements and few subtitle options. Digital products are, somehow, worse. Tied to a walled garden, with no true 'ownership', sometimes platforms like Amazon video will even make their own edits to movies, removing crucial parts for no apparent reason (the wicker man, avatar) and without marking it as abridged. They often make decisions that scream 'cash grab' (i.e. years ago when TNG came on netflix, I went to stream it and was shocked at the potato quality. Later re-releases were released in an un-cropped widescreen that included things like boom mikes because of the original intended aspect ratio of the show.) DRM is a nightmare. The product I want -- a file containing the media and only the media, which I can view however I want without logging into anybody's servers -- does not exist. And if it did exist, well, I do also take issue with paying full price for a file of a 40 year old movie, for example. I know there are costs associated with remasters, etc, but most of these are not remasters (and those costs are also much much lower than outright movie production).

A notable exception is outfits like Vinagar Syndrome, who as a labor of love dig up lost media and often re-cut or remaster / distribute it, and due to the low scale and lack of demand likely do not make much if any profit off it. I often do see showings of Vinegar Syndrome releases at my indie theater though or rent them from the one remaining video rental place (I'm unsure whether or not that benefits the production company).

It probably gets more hairy for people who watch a lot of new serialized media, which I do not.

I kind of wish people would think critically about the gradient of potential consumption habits when making their media choices rather than separating into pro / anti piracy stances, because it's an interesting and multi-faceted topic with a lot of considerations to be made.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#342
post #162

Can I do the reverse now as well? Email a company a unilateral change in the TOS? Or do TOS's have provisions against that as well? "I do not agree with your new TOS and will continue under your old TOS, and I will continue to use your service". And see when they will close your account down.

Now if most of their customers did that, they wouldn't close down all the accounts. Forgotten power of the people.

yes, and if I had a unicorn I would be happy.

> Now if most of their customers did that

If most customers did anything active we'd have a radically different society. The difficulty is getting people engaged to fight back against the system (I'm not absolving myself from being part of those people)

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#343
post #166

There are so many advantages to turning off and disconnecting these days. Avoiding TOS is just a small part. There are too many demands on our attention and our wallets and most of us aren't getting more money or time. I cancelled all the family's streaming services in 2025. Everyone adapted. It turns out a lot of things we are told we need, we really don't. People lived without them as recently as a few years ago. A…

Is there some place I can still buy TV shows or movies? Preferably DRM free

You can try to buy physical media. A surprising amount of shows and movies are still published as Blu-rays.

The release there is usually a bit delayed to streaming releases though and will set you back more if you buy it new. The used market can be your friend here, especially for older media. IME local libraries might also have quite a good offering depending on their funding and priorities.

The clear downside here is that you can't really follow along with others though (if that's your jam) as these releases are mostly in-full and not per-episode.

The only DRM-free video TV media sources are usually non-legitimate (torrents etc.). Many shows/movies are also interestingly ripped from streaming sites first though. You can of course legally format shift your physical media for private use to non-DRMed files depending on your region.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#344

Can I do the reverse now as well? Email a company a unilateral change in the TOS? Or do TOS's have provisions against that as well? "I do not agree with your new TOS and will continue under your old TOS, and I will continue to use your service". And see when they will close your account down.

They email from invalid addresses, so you cannot respond.

Can you block their emails from being delivered thus blocking TOS updates?

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They email from invalid addresses, so you cannot respond.

Can you block their emails from being delivered thus blocking TOS updates?

Probably as long as the mail server responds with not delivered. Really, it would be better to have a lawyer go through the decision than laypeople parsing a judge.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#348

IMHO the problem is allowing changes to terms and conditions for existing contracts. If I have a contract with a company, that contract was made under existing T&C. The company should not be able to change those conditions without my explicit permission. Denying me service if I disagree should not be a valid option. I get this periodically on our overly-computerized car: Here are new T&C, click yes to agree. You can…

Here in Sweden the thing that makes something a contract is that you can't change it-- that it has definite provisions that have been agreed and that both parties actually expect the other to hold up their part. The US breaking its contract law to treat non-contracts as contracts is one of the most insane things I've seen a legal system do to itself.

That's not what's happening as far as I can tell.

These users have agreed to a monthly contract or, if there is no money paid, a contract with no finite end date but with provisions to change terms, essentially terminating and restarting. So the service provider has decided to amend the contract at the end of the current (one month) contract in the first case, or on some date arbitrary date in the second (unpaid). The users are free not to accept the new contracts.

So nobody is just changing a contract mid stream. Use of a service month-to-month implicitly agrees to this: your ability to stop using and paying them on the 1st of the next month is their ability to change the terms on which the service is offered next month.

And btw, everyone on here hates this, but I don't know how else it could work. The idea that if I sell a customer one month of a paid saas on a monthly plan I'm somehow obligated to never change my terms or price forever as long as he or she keeps paying is beyond absurd. If people want stable terms, they need to find software that will sell them annual or multiyear contracts.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#350
post #254

The precedents around TOS law is so clearly and obviously wrong. Here, the court applied an “objective-reasonableness standard” to find there was “unambiguously manifested assent”. Which could only be true if we give new, contrarian definitions to the words “objective”, “reasonableness”, “unambiguously” and “assent”. What’s actually happening here is companies have been given the power to write arbitrary, custom laws…

> When your product is tracking locations there’s a trust barrier you need to overcome. How much would you trust Tile (Amazon) now?

Not by reading the Terms of Service at purchase; it could be changed, and ending up in the spam folder counts as assent.

Post reply on HN